Lanchester A/C and Ford T Pickup

[Kingsman]

Having got the new work area sort of sorted out in the new house it's time to actually start building some stuff again.  I imagine I'll be fiddling with the layout as I go along.  Not as much space as I'd hoped for as I couldn't take the bench round the corner.  There are 3 bays of shelving full of modeling stuff out of shot on the left.  But the new garage is 2' wider, 4' longer and maybe 1' taller than the old one so I have gained some work space width.

 

 

The WW1 itch is still there so I thought I'd deal with the remaining 2 WW1 stash kits, the Copper State Lanchester and ICM Ford T Utility.  I don't have the etch upgrade for the Lanchester, and other people have said it doesn't really need it.  I do have the excellent etch set for the Ford T by the Russian company Microdesign, which even includes 5 cast brass lamps - and all for £5.80, including its share of the shipping from Russia!!  I bought the etch on a whim while also ordering their sets for the new Zvezda T-34/85 and SU-100.  Then decided I had to have the kit to go with it.

    

 

I really wanted to do the Lanchester as a "Persian" campaign one, in which case it could have partnered the Ford.  But I can find zero evidence that Lanchesters ever went to Persia.  By "Persia" we mean safeguarding the oil wells around Baku, now in Azerbaijan, by Dunsterforce.  All but 3 of the Lanchesters were sold to Russia almost a couple of years before that operation.  Dunsterforce is said to have been equipped entirely with Austin and Ford vehicles, mostly Fords.  I can't trace the other 3 Lanchesters, but there is a photo of 3 in a semi-derelict state in what I take to be the Wormwood Scrubs garage.  So my working assumption is that these 3 may have been cannibalised for spares for the second Russian batch and then scrapped.  3 odd well-used cars are no use to anyone.  Some RNAS personnel from Cdr Locker-Lampson's unit supporting the Russians were sent to join Dunsterforce once they got back to the UK, but they didn't go out as a formed unit and there is no evidence that they took any equipment with them.  So I think Copper State have got it wrong here.  Western Front it is, then.

 

I think the Ford will also be Western Front and British, probably with supplies in the back.  The Fords supplied to the Australians in Palestine were British-built, not US-built, so it is type-appropriate.  The earlier angular-bonnet model pickups were certainly used, so there is no reason to think that the curved-bonnet 1917 model pickup was not used once it became the new production standard.  Although so far I haven't found any period photos to support this.  I believe that grey/white tyres had been replaced in production by black ones by1917, noting that the Lanchester is shown with black tyres 2 years earlier.  Black tyres were being made in the US before WW1 once the tyre life advantages of Carbon Black as a binder for the rubber compared to Zinc Oxide had been realised.  With the huge expansion of motor transport, longer-lasting harder-wearing tyres became essential and I believe that most if not all UK tyre manufacturers had switched to Carbon Black by 1917.

 

How quickly this build will progress is anyone's guess as I'm currently working 6 days a week with a 2 hour each way commute on 3 days.

[viper-30]

Interesting reading. Looking forward to following this sir .

[Yeoman1942]

Hi Das Abtielung

 

Just finished one of the CSM Lanchesters, really enjoyable kit to build and gives a great result. I was thinking of the same pairing, but like you couldn't find any evidence. The IWM has some good images from the caucuses including some of trucks that look a lot like model T's to my untrained eye.

 

The kit came together very quickly, so should fit well into your limited time

 

All the best 

 

Yeoman

[robgizlu]

Looking forwards to seeing both  builds unfold

Rob

[Kingsman]

I think the "Persia" tag is a goof by Copper State about the boundaries of what was once called Persia.  The nation state once called Persia is now Iran, although the borders are not exactly the same as the ancient area of Persia. Tajikistan and Afghanistan can apparently also be considered as "Persian" countries.  Baku, then mostly ethnically Tajik, had been in Persia but fell under Russian occupation in 1809 during the Russo-Persian war - hence the formation and despatch of Dunsterforce to that area in 1917-18 to attempt to prevent the oilfields falling under Revolutionary control and the supply of oil from there to the UK being prevented.  I'm not sure that Dunsterforce had any armour, but the Rolls-Royces already in Palestine would have been favourite as Dunsterforce was largely drawn from forces already in Palestine including some of the Australian Light Car Patrol.

 

Lanchesters did operate with Imperial Russian forces and the Royal Naval Air Service Armoured Car Expeditionary Force (Russian Armoured Car Division) [that name needs some work!] in 1915-17 and got as far south as Armenia and the Caucasus.  I believe that this is what Copper State incorrectly mean by "Persia".  But my point is that I wanted to do a non-Russian campaign car, which is why the Baku idea appealed.  But as 33 of the 36 Lanchesters built went to Russia after Western Front service (including the ex-Belgian ones) my options are very limited.  Some sources say that RNAS ACEF bought some Lanchesters back to the UK with them, but that would have meant driving or taking them by rail through revolutionary Russia all the way from Romania (pretty much) to Archangelsk, where we know the personnel left Russia.  Which seems implausible.  I believe they were left behind, which makes up the numbers sold to the Russians.  While The RNAS operated them, they were liveried as Russian - another of the markings supplied by Copper State - and owned by them.  So Lanchesters in Armenia are highly unlikely to have been marked "RNAS" as suggested by Copper State anyway.  None of the local forces would know what that meant!

 

I can already see that I need to add some rivets or bolts missing from the Lanchester on things like hinges.  Practical industrial welding by either acetylene gas or electric arc were still in their infancy in 1914, although WW1 caused their use to be greatly expanded.  And in any case the Lanchester was made from face-hardened plate, which cannot be welded - at least not without compromising the protection.

[McNab]

Hi DA

 

very much looking forward to following this build. I expect to learn much along the way!

 

cheers

Andrew

[Robert Jan Scholte v. Mast]

Hello. Interesting information on those early  Armoured Cars.

Found a useful link some time ago, showing RNAS Lanchester Armoured Cars in the Caucasus in 1916.

https://armoredcars-ww-one.blogspot.com/search/label/United-Kingdom?updated-max=2016-04-17T00:15:00%2B01:00&max-results=20&start=20&by-date=false You can click on country that owned and/or produced Armoured Cars on the left side. Great site with lots of info and beautiful photos.

Maybe you know it already, I don't know.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

[Kingsman]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:02 AM, McNab said:

I expect to learn much along the way!

Prepare to be disappointed!

 

Robert, yes I have come across that site.  The images come up regularly in searches.  I'm not keen on the colourisation.  I wish people wouldn't do it, as the exact shade and hue of WW1 colours is lost in the mists of time and can only be pure speculation now.  Monochrome photos can only show you shade, not hue, and knowing one colour doesn't give any clue to the others.

 

Copper State have announced the "Russian" version of the Lanchester (as previously kitted in resin by Armo) with the 37mm Hotchkiss gun fitted opposite the Vickers (did they replace that with their own very similar Maxim?  I imagine 303 ammunition would have been hard to come by).  The first batch sold to and operated by the Russians were almost all modified like this, but the RNAS-operated cars seem to be unmodified.  They will have some nice relaxed resin Russian crew figures to go with it.  RNAS had at least 1 Rolls-Royce in Russia too, which still begs the question of what happened to the "missing" 3 Lanchesters.

 

They have also announced an interior set with engine.

[McNab]

I doubt very much that l will be disappointed, DA. Perhaps the only disappointment will come from me comparing my efforts to yours 😩 

 

cheers

Andrew

[McNab]

How’s it going, DA? Are you ok? I read that you were busy, but the lack of progress in WIP concerns me. I hope you’re ok.

 

cheers

Andrew

[Kingsman]

I'm fine, just lacking in modelling mojo.  And that ever-evaporating thing called time .............................  Always so much other stuff to do.  At least I'm not working full time and commuting 4 hrs a day any more.  Now 3dpw baseline only 20 mins from home - but I'm on my feet 8hrs a day so I just want to veg out with my feet up after work.

 

I've actually fallen out of love with this little project.  There have been several other very nice Lanchesters posted recently and I only bought the Ford kit because I liked the look of the etch set and brass lights(!!).  And the WW1 itch is going away.  So I'm going to park it for a while.

 

Apologies to watchers.

[s.e.charles]

hobbies are like that sometimes. it will come back if it's meant to be.

 

never let the tail wag the dog!

[McNab]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:34 PM, Das Abteilung said:

I'm fine, just lacking in modelling mojo.  And that ever-evaporating thing called time .............................  Always so much other stuff to do.  At least I'm not working full time and commuting 4 hrs a day any more.  Now 3dpw baseline only 20 mins from home - but I'm on my feet 8hrs a day so I just want to veg out with my feet up after work.

 

I've actually fallen out of love with this little project.  There have been several other very nice Lanchesters posted recently and I only bought the Ford kit because I liked the look of the etch set and brass lights(!!).  And the WW1 itch is going away.  So I'm going to park it for a while.

 

Apologies to watchers.

Hi DA. Glad things are slowly working out even if you still have the inconvenience of work taking valuable time and energy / as do I, which is most inconvenient. I know what you mean about losing the itch.I still stick with WWI but although I have aero plane kits ready to build, I have absolutely zero enthusiasm for them. Vehicles are still my passion, at least for now. Take care.