Royal Navy Grumman Avenger Mk. 1

[Jonny]

Hi ...

I've been fortunate in buying an Italieri 1/48 TBF / TBM Avenger Mk.1 kit via an on-line auction site.  It's actually an Accurate  Miniatures kit.

 

Thanks to postings here in BM I've a (fairly) rough idea as to what needs to be done to construct the Observer's / Navigator's cockpit behind the pilot.

 

I *think* the kit needs other alterations, such as adding the forward-firing Machine gun trough.

 

PLEASE - could someone point me towards accurate drawings or photos of this area of the airframe?  I HAVE tried searching in the Interweb but with limited (i.e. poor !!! ) success. The best has been thanks to BM, actually.  Also, any advice regarding other changes needed to the basic kit to create a reasonably accurate Royal Navy Avenger Mk. 1 would be VERY useful!

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Jonny

 

 

[72modeler]

Jonny,

It might depend on the serial or BuNo of the TBF-1/Tarpon 1 that you want to model. Originally the TBF-1 had a fixed .30 cal gun mounted on the upper RH side of the nose, but in 1943, according to two different written sources I was able to find, including one from Grumman, the fixed .30 cal gun installation was removed and and was replaced by a .50 cal gun mounted in each wing.(IIRC, the designation then changed to TBF-1C.) I guess you might need to find a photo of an early production Avenger/Tarpon that has the fixed nose gun. I have attached a link that shows a TBF-1 with the original .30 cal nose gun, and you can see the trough that leads to the gun. The second link is to a Pinterest photo that shows Avenger Mk 1's with the fixed nose gun; almost all the photos I remember seeing of Mk 1's had the two .50 cal wing guns fitted. Maybe @tonyot could be of more help!

Mike

 

http://www.aviation-history.com/grumman/tbf.html

 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f7/f1/2e/f7f12e9c4ddb4acb60f1a03b5bbc8b58.jpg

 

[Grey Beema]

Nick, @85sqn built a beautiful FAA Avenger.  Give him a shout..

[85sqn]

Thanks Phil, very kind of you. Jonny this might be useful: 

 

but there aren't any drawings on here and I have found it difficult to find any solid gen on the observers cockpit of the Avenger. I went with rudder pedals, flying instruments, control column mounted on the cockpit wall. The observer used a 'bigsworth board' for plotting.

 

I think the thread may help though. ATB Nick

Edited June 1, 2019 by 85sqn
Took out the bit about guns, wrote from memory.

[85sqn]

Here's my one: 

 

[tonyot]

The TBF-1with cowling gun was the Tarpon/Avenger Mk.I,......... The TBF-IC with the wing guns was the Tarpon/Avenger MkII.

[dnl42]

According to Aero Series #21 TBF/TBM "Avenger" Supplement, the FAA received 140 TBF-1B (a.k.a., TBF-1), 255 TBF-1C, 120 TBM-1, 60 TBM-1C; NZ received 63 TBF-1C, all in 1943. In 1944, the FAA received 154 TBM-1 and 32 TBM-3. Finally, another 160 TBM-3 in 1945.

 

HTH

-- 

dnl

Edited June 1, 2019 by dnl42
Missed the 32 TBM-3 in '44 and another 160 in '45

[Troy Smith]

52 minutes ago, tonyot said:

The TBF-1with cowling gun was the Tarpon/Avenger Mk.I,......... The TBF-IC with the wing guns was the Tarpon/Avenger MkII.

AFAIK, no.   

An Avenger I was a TBF,  ie Grumman built,  an Avenger II  is a TBM,  ie Eastern built,  the Mk. number is not dependant on US subtype, for that you need the serial, and that will give you the US subtype.   A TBM-3 is an Avenger III. 

The linked thread

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235021746-some-questions-on-faa-avengers/

 

does give this breakdown.   

Also,  Grumman used US made MAP specified colours (very close to British paints) ,  while Eastern used US ANA paint equivalents,  so used ANA 613 Olive Drab for Dark Slate Grey and ANA 603 Sea Gray for Extra Dark Sea Grey, and the interior colours varied as well.

see here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235021746-some-questions-on-faa-avengers/&do=findComment&comment=2731805

 

If @Jonny   needs a model with the cowl gun,  KMC did make a resin conversion set 

http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/nraviation/KMC-1-48-TBF-1-Avenger-Update-Set.php

Quote

 

 

Brand new from KMC is their TBF-1 Avenger update set. Done in cast resin with the usual KMC quality, the set provides everything needed to create the first TBF Avenger with 12 pieces. Included are the starboard-side panel and right forward fuselage/cowling giving the .30 caliber machine gun mount and different cowl flaps. The cockpit interior includes a new floor and all equipment needed to create the second cockpit with seat, which was a major distinguishing factor with this version. A new raduio compartment door has the round window. 

 

 

note this does provide the 2nd seat position as well.  It's OOP AFAIK, but does turn up.   

 

HTH

[72modeler]

1 hour ago, tonyot said:

The TBF-1with cowling gun was the Tarpon/Avenger Mk.I,......... The TBF-IC with the wing guns was the Tarpon/Avenger MkII.

I figured you or Nick would know- I was hoping you both would post; thanks for the clarifications, and I have saved these little tidbits for the day I get off my butt and build one of my Hasegawa Tarpons. So pretty in TSS.... (BTW, there was nothing in the Grumman TBF-1 flight manual on the fixed nose gun- just a description of the ammunition capacity, location, and the arming and gun trigger switch locations. Nothing at all on the observer's station, either. Blast!) As an aside, is there any surviving Avenger that has the observer's station intact?

Mike

[72modeler]

I know this isn't really relevant to the discussion, but I found this website, and while it concerns RCN postwar Avengers, there is some description and a few photos of the observer's station that might be useful; I have never seen these photos/text before, but probably not new to you Tarpon/Avenger fans!

Mike

 

http://jproc.ca/rrp/rrp3/avenger.html

 

 

[85sqn]

To echo what Troy said above, I believe I made a MkI. Built by Grumman hence the deep dull green cockpit and nothing to do with the cowl gun which mine doesn't have. JZ127 fits into the MkI serial range. 

[tonyot]

4 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I figured you or Nick would know- I was hoping you both would post; thanks for the clarifications, and I have saved these little tidbits for the day I get off my butt and build one of my Hasegawa Tarpons. So pretty in TSS.... (BTW, there was nothing in the Grumman TBF-1 flight manual on the fixed nose gun- just a description of the ammunition capacity, location, and the arming and gun trigger switch locations. Nothing at all on the observer's station, either. Blast!) As an aside, is there any surviving Avenger that has the observer's station intact?

Mike

There is an ex RN Tarpon/Avenger in the Silver Hill restoration facility in the USA,...... but I have no idea what the interior looks like! I informed the Fleet Air Arm museum about this rare wartime survivor,..... but they were not interested!! The Observars sat facing forwards, behind the pilots position,.... the rest is unknown!!

Cheers

          Tony 

[tonyot]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

AFAIK, no.   

An Avenger I was a TBF,  ie Grumman built,  an Avenger II  is a TBM,  ie Eastern built,  the Mk. number is not dependant on US subtype, for that you need the serial, and that will give you the US subtype.   A TBM-3 is an Avenger III. 

My mistake,..... meant to type TBM-1C,.....  I did so on my articles about the type!

Cheers

           Tony 

[Jonny]

Everyone ...

 

In a search I found the Avenger in the Smihsonian started life as a FAA example!  It was handed back to the US after the war and apparently converted back to US configuration as far as the 'second seat /navigator's station' is concerned.  Fittings for the 30 calibre MG in the nose are still there but the trough was plated over. The airframe retains the Royal Navy specified bulged observation windows.  its wings are 'odd' in that at least one was replaced by a later mark's wing.  The description I read said that the RN roundels are still visible (I think the outline, not actual colours).

 

I'm grateful to you ALL for responding to my cry for help!  Earlier today I found a set of (British) Pilot's Notes for the early Avenger and bought it on line.  Delivery expected sometime next week. Please, any further thoughts from any of you (or anyone else, come to that) will be gratefully received!

 

Thanks to you all,

 

Jonny

[Dave Fleming]

2 hours ago, tonyot said:

There is an ex RN Tarpon/Avenger in the Silver Hill restoration facility in the USA,...... but I have no idea what the interior looks like! I informed the Fleet Air Arm museum about this rare wartime survivor,..... but they were not interested!! The Observars sat facing forwards, behind the pilots position,.... the rest is unknown!!

Cheers

          Tony 

 

 They’ve known about it and not been interested for at least 25 years! Would have been much more appropriate than painting their mk 6 as a D Day example.

[tonyot]

8 minutes ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

 They’ve known about it and not been interested for at least 25 years! Would have been much more appropriate than painting their mk 6 as a D Day example.

That is what I said to the boss man,.....  he said,... well we`ve already got a wartime D Day Avenger,.....I said that it is not the right version and he said "oh we`ll put the turret back on",..... I said that it still wasn`t the right version and not even a wartime British Avenger,...... he didn`t seem to get it!!! We were stood right in front of it the museum`s Avenger,......amazing,..... he was quite a snob really,...... typical ex officer,.... thought I was a pleb!  I said that there is probably the last retorable wartime British Avenger in storage in the USA,...... and just not interested.

All the best Dave,

                            Tony. 

[Pete M.]

16 hours ago, dnl42 said:

According to Aero Series #21 TBF/TBM "Avenger" Supplement, the FAA received 140 TBF-1B (a.k.a., TBF-1), 255 TBF-1C, 120 TBM-1, 60 TBM-1C; NZ received 63 TBF-1C, all in 1943. In 1944, the FAA received 154 TBM-1 and 32 TBM-3. Finally, another 160 TBM-3 in 1945.

 

HTH

-- 

dnl

Those old Aero Series listings are way off for the RNZAF's TBF's! We received 6 TBF-1's which were all retained in NZ for training as they were not considered suitable for operational use!

 

Here is the listing and Bu.Numbers for these aircraft.

 

NZ2501: Grumman const no.5211: TBF-1: Bu24328. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Gisborne during October 1943. Sold from Rukuhia by GSB tender number 1705 dated 02 March 1948 to J. Larsen and scrapped at Rukuhia.

NZ2502: 5215: TBF-1: Bu24332. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Gisborne on 09 October 1943. Sold from Rukuhia by GSB tender number 1705 dated 02 March 1948 to J. Larsen and scrapped at Rukuhia.

NZ2503: 5218: TBF-1: Bu24335. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Gisborne during October 1943. Placed in long term storage after war. Removed from storage in March 1949 and allocated to the Research and Development Flight for topdressing trials. Positioned from Masterton to Whenuapai on 23 May 1949 at end of trials. To No.42 Squadron, Ohakea on 17 November 1949 for drogue towing. Crashed in Waitemata Harbour near Hobsonville on 15 March 1956 after engine failure. The aircraft was recovered but was later broken up and was written off the books at Hobsonville on 17 August 1956.

NZ2504: 5219: TBF-1: Bu24336. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Guisborne on 12 October 1943. To No.31 Squadron. Placed in long term storage after war. Removed from long term storage in June 1948 and flew again on 28 July of that year with the General Purpose Flight, Ohakea for use in topdressing trials. Positioned from Masterton to Whenuapai on 23 May 1949 at end of trials. To No.42 Squadron, Ohakea on 17 November 1949 for drogue towing. Final flight with RNZAF was made from Ohakea to Hamilton on 30 June 1959. Converted to instructional airframe INST182 on 10 July 1959 for use as gate guardian at RNZAF Base, Te Rapa. Remained painted as NZ2504 and never wore the INST serial. Recovered for RNZAF Museum in 1978 and now displayed as NZ2521 in No.31 Squadron wartime colour scheme.

NZ2505: 5220: TBF-1: Bu24337. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Gisborne prior to 09 October 1943, being their first Avenger. To No.31 Squadron. To No.42 Squadron. One of the last 3 Avengers on strength with the RNZAF. Sold by GSB tender number SR228/59 dated 23 September 1959 to Bennett Aviation, Te Kuiti. To children's playground at Opunake Beach by 1970. Removed from the park in 1972 for restoration by a group of private individuals. Later to the RNZAF Museum who were originally going to trade it to the Australian Fleet Air Arm Museum. Loaned to the Gisborne Aviation and Preservation Society in 1999 for restoration and display in Gisborne. Presently displayed at the museum in Gisborne.

NZ2506: 5222: TBF-1: Bu24339. Built as TBF-1, classed as TBF-1C by USN, but were sufficiently different for RNZAF not to use them on operations. Arrived in New Zealand on "William Keith". Assembled by No.1 Aircraft Depot Hobsonville and BOC 21 September 1943 with Unit 36, Hobsonville. Delivered to No.30 Squadron, Gosborne on 20 October 1943. Placed in long term storage after war. Removed from storage in April 1949 and allocated to the Research and Development Flight for topdressing trials. Crashed on takeoff from Hood Aerodrome, Masterton on 03 May 1949, the first sortie of the trial. Written off books at Ohakea on 17 October 1949.

 

Many of the later TBF-IC's were apparently from a FAA order, and arrived with full FAA roundels and from what I have seen of their remains, many also had the rudimentry flight controls in the second cockpit as below:

 

 

(NZ2527 now on display at the Museum Of Transport And Technology-MOTAT). I was lucky enought do do a photo shoot on it many years ago when it was in the hands of what was then the NZ branch of the Confederate Air Force. It is now unknown whether they had the full FAA observer set-up in that middle cockpit! I also have yet to see a photo of one with the 'bulged' lower window as per the FAA TBF's so the modifications may not have been carried out before they were shipped from the USA.

 

I have also re-posted a photo from the Grumman Archives showing the centre cockpit layout of the TBF-1, and the instruction sheet from the KMC conversion set that may help with building an FAA Avenger.

 

 

 

The three lighter coloured units on the port side in front of the seat are the auto-pilot controls. On the US Navy TBF-1C's these are hidden under the shelf that carried the radar units as per the Accurate/Italeri kits.

Naturally in the FAA TBF-'s this area would also contain the specific Royal Navy homing radios and navigation devices used in FAA aircraft...photos of this layout are still the 'Holy Grail' of modelling!!!!

The original colour in this area is a very faded US Interior Green, not the Bronze Green that the TBF-1's were painted. Stangely enough, the internal bomb bay area IS Bronze Green!!!!!!!

 

Hope this helps and not hinders.

Cheers, Pete M.

Pete M.

[Denford]

Whatever happened to Kendall Model Company?  No trace or links on the Internet.

How I regret not getting their ¹/₇₂ wingfold set for the Hasegawa Avenger, and to add insult to injury it is prominently displayed on their Detailing Set which I did manage to find!

Attempts to persuade Wolfpack to issue one for the Hasegawa kit foundered on my lack of Korean.  My two Korean acquaintances (whom I do not know that well) are both female.  Not wishing to in any way appear sexist, I would first have to explain what a 'folding wing' was before seeking their assistance in preparing a message in Korean, which they have already done on another matter.

My only hope is that Airfix might re-tool it, but they would have to establish the elusive second-seat details.  Alas the example at Yeovilton has been modified in that area.

My only comfort is that, at Telford, they agreed that it was a credible choice to retool.

I live in hope.

[Stephen]

KMC went out of business years ago, in the early 2000's. 

[Jackson Duvalier]

Thanks to all for this thread!  I've got some decals for a TBF-1 in 1/72. Backdating the gun configuration isn't much of an issue, but there's a dearth of information regarding the early backseat details.

[Pete M.]

8 hours ago, Stephen said:

KMC went out of business years ago, in the early 2000's. 

Yes. And were purchased by the 'Squadron Empire'. Some of their items have re-surfaced under the True Details line.

 

Cheers,

Pete M.

[Dave Fleming]

Was KMC not part of the Aeromaster stable?

[Stephen]

4 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Was KMC not part of the Aeromaster stable?

Yes.

[Paul J]

Watch out for the engine cowl gills. They differ between early and later variants.