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Photo Request: P-47D 42-76424 "My Gal Sal"


Vonbraun

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Looking for photographic confirmation of the artist's rendition of the P-47D "My Gal Sal", as seen in Squadron's P-47 in Action.  All I have found are decals by Superscale and Skymodels which appear to be based on the Squadron artwork.  I am suspicious of the number 4 on the rudder, which is inconsistent with the then current AAF directives for painting the radio call numbers. 

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10 hours ago, Vonbraun said:

Looking for photographic confirmation of the artist's rendition of the P-47D "My Gal Sal", as seen in Squadron's P-47 in Action.  All I have found are decals by Superscale and Skymodels which appear to be based on the Squadron artwork.  I am suspicious of the number 4 on the rudder, which is inconsistent with the then current AAF directives for painting the radio call numbers. 

 

 

 

I’ll have a look through my pictures when I get home later to se if I’ve got anything.

 

Reference the 4 on the rudder, being that it is non-standard, I would be surprised if there wasn’t something to it otherwise they wouldn’t of done the artwork like that.

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She was indeed a P-47D-20-RE, shot down by flak over France on 30/06/44 while being flown by another pilot, a Lt. William Broughton, who became a POW. Regarding the spacing of the final  '4' in the serial on the RH side of the fin, it might have been because that production block of P-47's had 6-digit serial numbers, versus the 5-digit serials of earlier production blocks, which would have put the '2' on the port side and the '4' on the starboard side over the rudder hinge/balance , so they were moved to clear it, as there was not enough room to paint all six digits on the fin. That's just a guess on my part- I can get up to the reference library later today to check my  Ducimus Camouflage and Markings No. 15 on the Thunderbolt, as I seem to recall some text and drawings that showed serial number placement.  

Mike

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2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

She was indeed a P-47D-20-RE, shot down by flak over France on 30/06/44 while being flown by another pilot, a Lt. William Broughton, who became a POW. Regarding the spacing of the final  '4' in the serial on the RH side of the fin, it might have been because that production block of P-47's had 6-digit serial numbers, versus the 5-digit serials of earlier production blocks, which would have put the '2' on the port side and the '4' on the starboard side over the rudder hinge/balance , so they were moved to clear it, as there was not enough room to paint all six digits on the fin. That's just a guess on my part- I can get up to the reference library later today to check my  Ducimus Camouflage and Markings No. 15 on the Thunderbolt, as I seem to recall some text and drawings that showed serial number placement.  

Mike

But six numbers on the fin were used long before the D-20 was in production so it shouldn't have been a problem.

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Paraphrasing from Ducimus No. 15 in the Camouflage Markings series: "Size of characters was 7.5 inches high, with a maximum width of 5 inches; spacing between the figures was 1.5 inches...on the first P-47D's produced at Evansville the top of the serial was placed in line with the top of the rudder trim tab...commencing with the first P-47D's from Farmingdale and all all Evansville-built P-47D's from the -3 on, the  serial numbers were centered in line with the center rudder hinge. On P-47's that had a six-figure serial, the numbers were spaced 1 inch apart instead of 1.5 inches, to fit on the fin." That being said, the P-47D shown on the color profile should have had its entire serial on the fin. Since I have yet to find a photo of this P-47D, I can't confirm  this, but you know the saying about not trusting a profile without a photo to back it up! Hope this helps!

Mike 

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10 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Paraphrasing from Ducimus No. 15 in the Camouflage Markings series: "Size of characters was 7.5 inches high, with a maximum width of 5 inches; spacing between the figures was 1.5 inches...on the first P-47D's produced at Evansville the top of the serial was placed in line with the top of the rudder trim tab...commencing with the first P-47D's from Farmingdale and all all Evansville-built P-47D's from the -3 on, the  serial numbers were centered in line with the center rudder hinge. On P-47's that had a six-figure serial, the numbers were spaced 1 inch apart instead of 1.5 inches, to fit on the fin." That being said, the P-47D shown on the color profile should have had its entire serial on the fin. Since I have yet to find a photo of this P-47D, I can't confirm  this, but you know the saying about not trusting a profile without a photo to back it up! Hope this helps!

Mike 

Exactly, but like you say we don't know if everything is correct on the profile, so although it most likely did have the four on the rudder, was the height position correct, did the number start too far back on the fin? Being that this D-20-RE appears to be in the first block which left the factory in camo and not NMF, the serial would have been factory applied but was there another reason for re-painting after the factory such as damage to the fin?

 

Anyway I've been through some books and I can't find a picture of this aircraft yet, so hopefully you can come up with something.

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Von Braun and Tbolt,

 

Not that the 362nd FG is one of the 9th AF groups I have an interest in, but I did have some spare time between projects today and I looked at photos of P-47D's on the 362nd FG facebook page, an internet search for 362nd P-47D's, and all of my Thunderbolt photo reference works, which are pretty extensive, and I can make the following observation- out of every photo I observed of a razorback P-47D, including all of the 362nd aircraft, whether OD or natural metal, on every one that had a 6-digit serial number, the serial was located entirely on the fin centered on the center rudder hinge. I was not able to find any photos of My Gal Sal, but there might be one in the recently published book on the 362nd FG P-47's titled Thunderbolts Triumphant, by Chris Bucholtz.

 

I have no way of knowing whether or not the serial placement on the color profile you posted is correct or not; anything is possible, and there is always an exception to the rules when it comes to markings applied to aircraft that are outside the 'norm' or what is specified in a T.O. or markings document; battle damage and/or a rudder replacement is a possibility, but that would not  seem to require painting a serial digit on the rudder when all six digits would have been painted on the fin anyway- same rationale for a possible fin replacement- why would one digit need to be applied to the rudder? Maybe if this did indeed take place, the painter used the normal spacing for a 5-digit serial and ran out of room on the fin? Bottom line- until a photo surfaces that shows the fin, we will never know. I personally don't take much stock in many color profiles, as I have been bitten more times than I care to admit when an actual  photo of the airplane depicted in an artist's rendition is found.

 

If you really want to do this aircraft as correctly as possible as a tribute or to make as good a replica as you can, then don't apply the serial until/unless you can find a photo that confirms the unusual placement of the 6th digit, or knowing that the factory applied 6-digit serials  entirely on the fin, go with that. Is this a great hobby, or what? Not much help, I guess, but maybe a photo will surface. 😥

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
corrected spelling
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7 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Von Braun and Tbolt,

 

Not that the 362nd FG is one of the 9th AF groups I have an interest in, but I did have some spare time between projects today and I looked at photos of P-47D's on the 362nd FG facebook page, an internet search for 362nd P-47D's, and all of my Thunderbolt photo reference works, which are pretty extensive, and I can make the following observation- out of every photo I observed of a razorback P-47D, including all of the 362nd aircraft, whether OD or natural metal, on every one that had a 6-digit serial number, the serial was located entirely on the fin centered on the center rudder hinge. I was not able to find any photos of My Gal Sal, but there might be one in the recently published book on the 362nd FG P-47's titled Thunderbolts Triumphant, by Chris Bucholtz.

 

Mike

I've got the Thunderbolts Triumphant book and unfortunately there are no photos of My Gal Sal in it.

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7 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Von Braun and Tbolt,

 

Not that the 362nd FG is one of the 9th AF groups I have an interest in, but I did have some spare time between projects today and I looked at photos of P-47D's on the 362nd FG facebook page, an internet search for 362nd P-47D's, and all of my Thunderbolt photo reference works, which are pretty extensive, and I can make the following observation- out of every photo I observed of a razorback P-47D, including all of the 362nd aircraft, whether OD or natural metal, on every one that had a 6-digit serial number, the serial was located entirely on the fin centered on the center rudder hinge. I was not able to find any photos of My Gal Sal, but there might be one in the recently published book on the 362nd FG P-47's titled Thunderbolts Triumphant, by Chris Bucholtz.

 

Mike

You need to look at some more photos then ;)

 

Republic_P-47_Thunderbolt_19th_FS_318th_

 

47934727468_8c982cf615_h.jpg

 

P-47D_42-75783_Little_Rock-ette_of_the_1

 

47934777467_67ac69f330_o.jpg

 

So many things during wartime were done non standard and like I said before why would the artist of that profile put the 4 on the rudder if it's not been taken from a photo? Yes it could be a mistake but unlikely as the artist of this profile, Don Greer, did all the other profiles in the In Action book and got the serial positioned correctly in those, then he placed that 4 on the rudder for a reason, unless maybe he was copying another, incorrect profile?

 

This is the sort of aircraft I would stay away from modelling until I could find a picture showing if the 4 was on the rudder or not.

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13 hours ago, Tbolt said:

You need to look at some more photos then ;)

Obviously I don't have access to the same photo archives you do,, but the point I was attempting to make was that in all of the photos I looked at (almost 50) those that had 6-digit serials had all six digits applied to the fin, with none on the rudder. It does look like in the four photos you posted that the horizontal placement varied above and below that which was specified, but Vonbraun wanted to know if the "extra" digit placement on the rudder was correct or not, not the height on the fin on which the serial was painted. Vonbraun might want to try contacting the author of the P-47 In Action  through Squadron Publications to see if  he could supply information on a photo or other reference used by the artist who did the profile.  Regardless, it's a pretty razorback Jug with nose art not seen before, so certainly well worth modeling, no matter where the serial ends up being applied!  

Mike

 

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6 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Obviously I don't have access to the same photo archives you do,, but the point I was attempting to make was that in all of the photos I looked at (almost 50) those that had 6-digit serials had all six digits applied to the fin, with none on the rudder. It does look like in the four photos you posted that the horizontal placement varied above and below that which was specified, but Vonbraun wanted to know if the "extra" digit placement on the rudder was correct or not, not the height on the fin on which the serial was painted. Vonbraun might want to try contacting the author of the P-47 In Action  through Squadron Publications to see if  he could supply information on a photo or other reference used by the artist who did the profile.  Regardless, it's a pretty razorback Jug with nose art not seen before, so certainly well worth modeling, no matter where the serial ends up being applied!  

Mike

 

I realize what was being I ask I was just referring to you statement and using it as a point about non standard serial placement and just because we've found no other Razorbacks with numbers on the rudder obviously doesn't mean one doesn't.

 

And you do have access to the same photo archive as me - all those pictures are available on the internet, I just spend far too much time looking for them ;) Hopefully some one can still find a photo of this aircraft.

 

I wouldn't model this aircraft at the moment because I know if i did, once I've finished it a photo would appear proving me wrong!

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