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Well, between a boy scout canoe trip and some other responsibilities, I got a little time at the bench this weekend. I'd hoped to get to the decal stage, but I'm not sure if I'll get there this weekend.

 

In the meantime, here's what I was able to accomplish. First, Friday morning I went down to see how the Black Gloss coat turned out and was not happy to find there was this weird bronze coloring in some spots of the paint job on the wings. I tried to capture it with a picture, but it doesn't do it justice

 

kf73z9d.jpg

 

You can kind of see it on the leading edge in the middle of the wing.  In real life it is very prominent and very very noticeable when the light hits it just right. It was kind of iridescent. The painting method I used is the same that I use for all my Polished Aluminum Alclad jobs and I don't ever remember seeing this happen. So I repainted the whole plane again. What I discovered was when I put a coat of Mr. Surfacer thinner on the paint, it would all turn this iridescent color, but the color would go away as the Mr. Surfacer thinner evaporated. Where I put it on extra thick, the color stayed.  So I think I was too scared of not getting a good finish and over did it with the Mr. Surfacer over coat.  On my next repaint, I only put 4-5 drops of Mr. Surfacer thinner in with the paint and didn't do the thinner overcoat and the finish came out just fine.

 

I have a problem with not trusting that gloss paint will level out like its supposed to. I always panic and add more paint or whatever to smooth it out and that usually causes problems.  If I just take a deep breath and leave it overnight, I usually find it performs as it's supposed to.

 

But, it looks fine now after repainting:

 

EfDdyhi.jpg

 

And I was relieved to find that the panel lines I made with Mr. Surfacer 500 look just fine:

 

CICBkUt.jpg

 

7n1N4If.jpg

 

Its hard to capture on a glossy plane, but the top photo shows them quite well.  As I thought the lines I made on the bottom with CA were a little too prominent, but with the black gloss paint you really have to look to see that they are taller and wider.

 

I masked and painted the canopy.  I put a coat of gray on first, and then the black so that it looks like it is interior gray on the inside.

 

8c5Fpqk.jpg

 

I still need to paint the windshield wiper.

 

I forgot to take pictures of the bomb pylons I pulled off of the Testors B-57 but they had horrible sink marks in the middles.  I used CA to fill them in and sanded them smooth then repainted them:

 

CIxneiB.jpg

 

Painted the rest of the Zinc Chromate pieces and started gloss coating them for a wash

 

SrfE3W7.jpg

 

After fixing the seams on the bombs I pulled off of the Testors B-57 (see previous posts), I painted them yesterday.  Much better!

 

QsP59j6.jpg

 

Finally I gave all the landing gear metal bits a coat of Testors Enamel Chrome Silver, which does a pretty reasonable job of looking like slightly weathered shiny metal

 

mvQEeJ4.jpg

 

My plan is to paint the flat black parts today and at least start on the decals.  I don't know what to do about the flat black.  Looking at the pictures I think that the Tamiya NATO Black would be closer to what it was in real life, but I don't think I can use that paint because its acrylic.  So, I either paint the NATO black first, then mask it when I need to gloss coat the decals and likely pull a lot of it off, or do the decals first and then mask them to paint the NATO black on and run the risk of pulling decals off (because I've found that masking tape and decals never mix). So, I'll need to come up with an enamel or lacquer alternative.  I have GSI Engine Gray, so if I add a drop or two of black to that it may look right.  I'll have to experiment.

 

I haven't been able to find any reference photos for the rockets on a night intruder, so I will rely on the Testors instructions for the colors.

 

The other real hurdle I have is cleaning up the sway braces and making two replacements.  I'm really not sure I can get those to look OK in either case.

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I masked the leading edges for the flat black. It turns out that the Testors Instruction sheet had all the flat black areas marked, so I didn't need to do all the research. 

 

It seemed simple enough, they were straight lines and well marked on the plastic, but man it ended up taking a couple hours!  Ugh.

 

je8JM8P.jpg

 

I decided to mix my own NATO black with my Mr. Color Lacquers because I didn't want to use acrylic. I did a 1:1 mix of black:Engine Gray, and thinned it.  The paints are glossy, so when they dried I had to go over them with Testors dull coat decanted into my airbrush.

 

r6xg990.jpg

 

It may seem a bit light, but I think that's the photo.  It's a little darker in real life and really seemed to match the pictures I posted previously. I think this photo is more accurate:

 

oSXcVy2.jpg

 

So, I'm really happy how it turned out, and I still have to do the anti glare in front of the cockpit. I also need to paint the navigation lights before I start to put decals on, otherwise I'd be masking over the decals. I'm a little disappointed I didn't get more done today, but that's what happens when you get into the details!

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9 hours ago, opus999 said:

I don't think I can use that paint because its acrylic

Maybe I am wrong, but it's my understanding that you can put a coat of future over the area that need the matte/flat black, then paint the black on top of the future and you won't have a compatible problem. I agree that putting tape over the decals is risky, even if they are sealed in with a coat of clear, you just never know.

 

Glad you figured out what was wrong with the wings, I would have capped myself if I found that. You can really see the copper looking color in that picture, so I know that in real life, it was much worse. Scary stuff!

 

You made a nice jump this weekend though, she looks good, the bombs are MUCH better now, as are the sway braces. Looking forward to the next update.

 

I kind of hit a brick wall on my F-15A-C, I don't have all the paints for the cockpit, so it will be difficult to make progress. The kit is SO OLD, it has very few color call outs, and the ones that are there, are colors NOT in my tiny stash of twenty paints, so I have to stop and order more paints. I am thinking about just going with the wrong colors, as they won't be that far off and I just want to keep building. Grrrrrr, frustrating! I did glue the main wings and some drop tanks, plus used my seam scraper, which works really well, but a coat of paint will reveal the true results. Oh, just a simple trick sort of, I bought some Tamiya paint markers, like XF1 and XF2, they are really nice, simple to use and fast. If you have not tried them, you might want to give them a shot. I bought the red color specifically for navy aircraft bay doors, I won't know how good they work in that respect, but hopefully by the end of this week, I will.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

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Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2019 at 8:57 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

you won't have a compatible problem

Actually, I wasn't worried about compatibility, I was worried about pulling up the acrylic paint with the tape.  I used Testors acrylic paint almost exclusively on my first two builds after returning to the hobby and had so much of it pull up that I swore I would never use acrylics again. I broke that promise with my Oscar, thinking that maybe the Tamiya acrylic would be better, but found it so easy to scratch off that I switched to Mr. Color after only painting the empennage.

 

On 6/9/2019 at 8:57 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

putting tape over the decals is risky

Yeah, every time I've done it I've had some pull up, so now if I have any painting to do around decals I'll use Post-it notes (genuine, not the cheap generics) for masking.  Trouble is, the post-it notes don't stick that well, so you have to be really careful and often I just hold the post it down with a finger to make sure it doesn't blow away.  Clearly this won't work with my B-57!

 

On 6/9/2019 at 8:57 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

it has very few color call outs

I'm sure you know about this, but Cybermodeler has some fairly useful color guides -- here's the one for the cockpit colors: http://www.cybermodeler.com/color/cockpit.shtml. If you need detail colors, I've found that some of the entries for different models for the same plane at scalemates will have the instructions available. So you might be able to find, say, instructions for a Monogram kit that have better color call outs than your instructions do.

 

On 6/9/2019 at 8:57 PM, Stalker6Recon said:

colors NOT in my tiny stash

I don't know what colors you have, and I don't know how good you are at mixing colors. I've been told I have a fairly good eye for color and have found I can mix reasonable approximations of the color I need if I have the right set of paints. It really helps if you have a FS number because then you can go to http://colorserver.net/, type the number in, and get a nice big swatch to compare to when you mix your color. I have the usual disclaimers about how good your monitor is with color, how good your eye is, etc, etc.  It helps to be slightly forgiving of not-quite-perfect color matches. I used to be really adamant that I have the exact FS number, from a manufacturer who made paint that was the closest, etc. etc.  Then after I weathered it it wasn't so perfect anymore and I realized that if I get a color that's pretty-darn-close it will look pretty much the same after weathering and decals.

 

If you choose to go the paint mixing route, your new pipettes will be useful.  Make sure you count how many drops of each color you use and write them down.  That will be a life saver if you have to do any patching.

 

Just a thought! (or two).  Hang in there -- I'm following along with your build.

Edited by opus999
added something for clarity

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Made some good progress today to make up for the slow week.  First, though, on Wednesday night I masked the exhaust cans and painted them.  There were no guidelines on the Airfix model, so I had to use the old Testors model as a guide.  Since the model was gloss black, I could directly apply the Alclad.  I used stainless steel, and then lightly dusted dark aluminum until it just started to look a little less shiny.  It matches my reference photos pretty well.

 

xW3pUA7.jpg

 

Last night I masked the navigation lights, but was just too tired to do much else, but this morning I got them painted.  I made the red and green darker so that they wouldn't stand out so much.  It was about a 10:1 color to black mix.  Again there were no guidelines so I had to use the Testors model as a guide.

 

tVyjePc.jpg

 

lkzdXm9.jpg

 

Also got the anit-glare painted.  Again it looks more gray in the picture, I don't know why.

 

b5ECJKd.jpg

 

And finally to the MAIN EVENT!!! Started the decals and they were exactly what I wanted! Exactly what they should've been a long time ago. My only minor complaint is that the stripes are very brittle so there were a lot of little patches and repairs. The bigger decals were OK though. Unfortunately that meant it took a lot of time to put them on.  Also, the decals are just long red strips that you have to cut to size, so that is time consuming too.

 

uQ7WGSx.jpg

 

3rsRWuF.jpg

 

So lots of good progress. Washed and painted the landing gears and tires too. So, I'm in the home stretch. I will be spending the day canoeing down the Yakima tomorrow, so no time at the bench.  Sunday is Father's day, and I don't know what the family has planned for me, so it could be that I don't get anything else done this weekend. Bummer.

 

Now the challenge is to match the red color of the stripes and stenciling to paint the rudder.  Regular red won't do it, but I'm thinking Chevrolet engine red might?

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4 hours ago, opus999 said:

Also, the decals are just long red strips that you have to cut to size

Good to see this finally coming together they way that you wanted, so long ago, she looks great. I am surprised that the decals were not pre-sized. Cutting one set is not that hard, but then making an exact replica on the other wing, would challenge any brain. It would be very easy to get the lines just a bit off in one place via angle or length, then the difference would compound as you moved along, very sketchy.

 

Looks like you will be clearing your bench very soon, with the decals in hand for the F-18 and this beauty nearing the finish line, I have to ask, what next?

 

Cheers!

 

Anthony

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6 hours ago, opus999 said:

Also got the anit-glare painted.  Again it looks more gray in the picture, I don't know why.

Thats the way light is absorbed into the two colors. Thats why in WW2, Korea, and this night-fighter or night intruder was gloss. They found in testing during WW2 that flat absorbed the light more and spotlights could find the planes easier. However when they used gloss paint it was harder for spotlights to see them. P-61's, B-29's, F-82's were all glossy, so were the P-38M prototypes. It seems the opposite of what you think it should be ? But its better if the light reflects than is absorbed. 

 

Dennis

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4 hours ago, Stalker6Recon said:

I have to ask, what next?

I have a 1/72 F2H Banshee that I've had for years and recently gotten new decals for (the originals were offset as bad as the ones in the B-57).  After that I have an F-80 Shooting Star. Then I've got an Eduard Spitfire Mk. IXe (one of the best kits I've ever assembled) which I plan to make as the mount of Norway's Rolf Berg, which is something I've wanted to do for a number of years now. Finally, I have the P-40C from Airfix that I will make as a Flying Tiger (it's been done a lot on this forum, but I still am pretty excited to do that particular scheme).


Don't know if that's the order I will do them in or not.  Last night I found myself day dreaming about the F-80 quite a bit.

 

A few that might make it to my "inbox" soon include a Revell (Germany) Gripen and a Trumpeter Su-15, because I've been really interested in those planes recently.

 

Seems all planned out, but it will likely change! :)

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Thats the way light is absorbed into the two colors. Thats why in WW2, Korea, and this night-fighter or night intruder was gloss. They found in testing during WW2 that flat absorbed the light more and spotlights could find the planes easier. However when they used gloss paint it was harder for spotlights to see them. P-61's, B-29's, F-82's were all glossy, so were the P-38M prototypes. It seems the opposite of what you think it should be ? But its better if the light reflects than is absorbed. 

 

Dennis

I've read that before when reading about the P-61 Black Widow.

 

Maybe I should've stayed with just straight flat black, although the leading edges look a little on the gray side in the pictures. Plus, the contrast isn't as prominent in real life, so there is that...

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It's looking great!  Looks like you've learnt some techniques that'll be useful in future, too!

 

Regards

 

Martin

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I've only had two nights at the bench in the last two weeks b/c I got sick last weekend.  why is it always the weekend??? So, one night was spent getting about half the striping on the starboard wing finished. I'll post pictures of that hopefully tonight as I plan to at least finish that wing today (maybe after the rest of the family goes to bed, the way things are going).

 

The other night was spent evaluating a couple of models that came into my possession, and therein lies a story that I'd like to tell because I think this is an appreciative audience!

 

My Dad (a Vietnam vet himself) had a close friend through his church who was a WWII veteran named Des. Des was from Canada, and somehow served in Britain in the USAAC flying on B-24s as navigator (or radio operator, I can't really remember). He was the sole survivor of a B-24 crash at the base. When I first met him, I wasn't aware of his age or background and judged him to be just a few years older than my dad because he didn't look over 90! Nor did he act like he was over 90. The few times I spent with him were fun because he was a great guy to talk with.

 

As if being a B-24 crew member isn't enough to interest the folks here, he was also an avid modeler! Now, by "Avid" I mean he built a lot of them. Quickly. I have to laugh at how he approached modeling.  He would get a kit, cut ALL the parts off the sprue trees and approach it like a puzzle (i.e., no instructions). 😆 I think his eyesight was kind of poor, so he often didn't get parts aligned right and he used so much Testors tube glue that parts were often warped.  But he didn't care. He assembled them and hung them from the ceiling at his place and proudly showed them off. I loved it because he just built for the joy of it. I think most of us can relate to that approach to building, as I am sure we had a similar approach at one point in our lives. For me it was when I was 13 and I would slam 'em together and paint 'em and move on to the next. And I loved every one of them on the shelf and there was no worrying about whether this or that color was exactly right, or how to accurately weather this or that.  (Don't get me wrong, that kind of detail is what I love these days, but when I was 13... not so much).

 

As you might have guessed, Des passed away a couple of weeks ago. IIRC, he was 95. Des's son gave my dad 3 kits that Des was working on. One was a 1/72 Po-2 that hadn't been started and which my dad kept for him self.  The other 2 are an ICM Tu-2 and an Airfix (new tool) Whitworth Whitley, both 1/72 that he asked if I wanted. I took them figuring at the very least they could provide spare parts. The Tupolev was complete, but the Whitley had only just been started. I thought it might be a fun challenge to fix up the Tu-2, but it was so encased in glue that I could not remove any parts without breaking them, so I suspect it will be used to help my son practice airbrushing and then may be donated to his "Ceiling Air Force". The Whitley, on the other hand, only had the nose section and fuselage glued together. I was able to disassemble the nose section and cockpit, but the part that makes up the spine of the rest of the fuselage is stuck on pretty tight.  It is off center so it would take some sanding, puttying and shaping to get it to look right, but nothing outside my skills. I did a careful count of all the parts and there are only 5 missing. Two won't really be missed, the other 3 are some sort of scoop for the engine nacelles.  Since I have one I can use as a template I believe I can fashion some reasonably accurate ones out of epoxy putty.  The only other thing missing are the decals, but the instructions seemed to indicate they were just roundels and squadron codes, so I can work around that.

 

So that's what I did with one of my evenings at the bench. I hope I can get the Whitley to look nice as a way to honor Des. Don't know when I'll get to it, but it might be soon.

 

In the meantime... I've got a B-57 to finish!

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Posted (edited)

Oh yeah... That's better!

 

xxdrpqn.jpg

 

Now I'm off to the airport to tour a B-24, B-17, B-25, P-51 and P-40!!! :D

Edited by opus999

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Good luck with the Whitley, @opus999.

That's a great thing to do for his memory. 

 

I had a little mini success recently which may help out with something like the wing leading edge situation in the future. 

While Doing a little bare metal Lockheed L14 (civilian Hudson type) recently I left the de-icing boots way too late for safely doing a masking job. 

I have some clear decal paper, and I sprayed a piece with semi gloss black from a rattle can. 

Measured up the wing and cut a pair of suitably tapered strips, dipped them and slid them on. 

It worked perfectly! 

Lovely straight edges cut with a blade, no masking or ripping up the surface or other decals. 

I've got a fair bit of black decal left and I plan on using the same method in future as 1st choice option. 

 

The B57 looks great, and I'm glad you finally had success with the bright red finishing. 

😎

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What a great story regarding Des, it's really sad how fast that generation is disappearing, we should all take any opportunity to sit and talk with them whenever possible. Interesting story from the Philippines that you will enjoy as well. One of my good friends here brought me to his mother's house to visit. She was getting up there in age, and I learned quickly that she was a school girl when the war started. Needless to say, she survived the bombing raids over Cebu City (where I live) and the following occupation. She told me a very interesting story regarding those years. All the schools were taken over by the Japanese, and their teachers were replaced by JIA officers. They forced the children to cut their hair, japanese style and also forced them to sing japanese songs in class, speak japanese and were very strick disciplinarians using corporeal punishment for infractions. So at some point early on, she was so scared of her "teacher" that she would leave her house in the morning and go hide in a sewer drain until school hours ended. The officer decided after a few days of her absence, to go visit their home to find out where she was. When he arrived and got her to confess her deeds and reasons, his attitude and treatment towards her, and ALL the children changed. He became much less frightening and much more caring, which is bizarre when compared to what the JIA did to the Philippines, and all of Asia for that matter.

 

Sorry, just a great story that will be lost if I don't share it. I read a book when I moved here that was written by a Filipino scholar, it chronicled the history of war crimes committed by the JIA during the war. To be honest, until that time, I never really knew exactly how bad they were in Asia. This book changed everything regarding my view of the japanese, which was not very high to begin with. Their pre twentieth century history is interesting, but they went down hill quickly once the Samurai were removed from society. The history is as appalling as nazi's, and in some cases, far worse. In history classes in my public school, we never learned about the atrocities they did. It may have been part of the deal made by MacArthur to white wash what they did. We learned of the big battles and the bomb, the rest of the history was focused on Europe. Anyway, when I finished reading that book (I will try to find it and upload a picture, it's worth the read) my already low opinion of their masogynistic culture, hit rock bottom. They make nice models and motorcycles/cars/electronics, but that is as far as I ever want to share my life with them, even to this day, they still have not taken responsibility for their war crimes.

 

Sorry, but I am passionate about the horrors committed by them, once I start talking/writing, it just flows. Anyway, glad you are feeling better and that progress has truly been made, she looks great. In fact, this kit has turned me on to an era that I never even considered before, I was always a modern era/WWII, never a between(er) guy. This, and an incredible starfighter has changed that.

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

 

PS. I wrote more about my experience with WWII survivors, specifically two "comfort girls", but due to length and subject, I deleted it. If you are interested, I will tell you about my neighbors, just let me know.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/28/2019 at 10:53 PM, opus999 said:

Oh yeah... That's better!

 

xxdrpqn.jpg

I'm reading 'B-57 Canberra at war 1964-1972' at the moment, so I'm enjoying your construction report. One comment: the blue of the Star&Bars looks horrible, it's nowhere near Insignia Blue. If you have a better decal with the correct colours, please apply it over the current one..


Rob

 

Edited by Rob de Bie

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rob de Bie said:

the blue of the Star&Bars looks horrible

So, I went down and looked at the model because I was surprised I hadn't noticed how bright the blue was.  Well in real life, it is very accurate Insignia Blue.  I did some experiments with my camera to see if I could capture what I was seeing in real life and the best I could do was this:

 

Fr18az8.jpg

 

I noticed that my Fluorescent bench lights make the blue a little brighter in real life, which might be a function of how the decals are printed? Maybe there is a white backing that is reflecting through a transparent blue? The picture below is color corrected for incandescent lights which makes the blue a little brighter, but it is still better than the previous post. It is still not quite what I see with my eyes.

 

0a0LynF.jpg

 

What's weird is when I look at the decal and the screen on my camera at the same time, the decal on the screen is a brighter blue, so there maybe something with the camera.  I've been struggling with the fact that the photos of the leading edges of the A/C look much lighter than they do in real life, which could be a related problem.  I notice in these photos that the leading edges look correct. So maybe I shouldn't use fluorescents for my photos. I may try a different camera too.

 

On the sheet, the decals look nearly black, and against the black A/C they look dark blue. So they are accurate.  I just wonder how I'm going to get it to look right for my RFI! I'm still learning how to take decent photos for showing off.

 

Thanks for the feed back though, I appreciate it!

Edited by opus999
make it clearer

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By the way, in the above photos, you can see my tests for the red that will be put on the rudder. on the left is Chevrolet engine red and the right is Ford engine red, both on a white primer. I think the Chevy engine red is the closest match to the decals, but not perfect. Any opinions? Anybody know of any other colors that might be closer?

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Ok what im going to say will sound weird but regards your paint question. I have in the past to get a darker red have added a few drops of gloss sea blue. It comes out a dark red bordering on maroon. Now for the insignia, if you can try photographing it outside in natural light or at the least next to an open window using daylight not artificial light ? Either that or tell me to shove it and mind my business. 😉 

 

Dennis

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3 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Ok what im going to say will sound weird but regards your paint question. I have in the past to get a darker red have added a few drops of gloss sea blue. It comes out a dark red bordering on maroon. Now for the insignia, if you can try photographing it outside in natural light or at the least next to an open window using daylight not artificial light ? Either that or tell me to shove it and mind my business. 😉 

 

Dennis

Dennis,

 

Good suggestions! I hadn't thought of sea blue, so I will give that a try.  My paint mule has been primed in white in preparation for several tests...

 

About the natural light -- I've heard that suggestion before and i think it's a good one, but I still wonder if the camera is partially to blame?  I will try both and see!!

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

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2 hours ago, opus999 said:

By the way, in the above photos, you can see my tests for the red that will be put on the rudder. on the left is Chevrolet engine red and the right is Ford engine red, both on a white primer. I think the Chevy engine red is the closest match to the decals, but not perfect. Any opinions? Anybody know of any other colors that might be closer?

Just a suggestion, but white may not be the best color for a red upper coat. Zero Paints, for example, recommend and sell a pink primer to go with their reds. 

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2 hours ago, opus999 said:

So, I went down and looked at the model because I was surprised I hadn't noticed how bright the blue was.  Well in real life, it is very accurate Insignia Blue.  I did some experiments with my camera to see if I could capture what I was seeing in real life and the best I could do was this:

 

I noticed that my Fluorescent bench lights make the blue a little brighter in real life, which might be a function of how the decals are printed? Maybe there is a white backing that is reflecting through a transparent blue? The picture below is color corrected for incandescent lights which makes the blue a little brighter, but it is still better than the previous post. It is still not quite what I see with my eyes.

 

What's weird is when I look at the decal and the screen on my camera at the same time, the decal on the screen is a brighter blue, so there maybe something with the camera.  I've been struggling with the fact that the photos of the leading edges of the A/C look much lighter than they do in real life, which could be a related problem.  I notice in these photos that the leading edges look correct. So maybe I shouldn't use fluorescents for my photos. I may try a different camera too.

 

On the sheet, the decals look nearly black, and against the black A/C they look dark blue. So they are accurate.  I just wonder how I'm going to get it to look right for my RFI! I'm still learning how to take decent photos for showing off.

 

Thanks for the feed back though, I appreciate it!

That's an interesting turn! I would never have guessed that. I'm happy the colour is right!

 

I experienced a similar problem in the past, and I still haven't figured it out. I have some scrap parts of a Dutch F-104, and I made some paint samples to find the best match. In natural light and concluded that the middle one was very close, and the left one too yellow. Imagine my amazement when I saw the result of this photo, which gives a very different impression, with my best match being much too green. I did a similar experiment with grey samples, but they do not show the weird colour shift.

 

Rob

 

rf104-25.jpg

 

rf104-26.jpg

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, billn53 said:

Just a suggestion, but white may not be the best color for a red upper coat. Zero Paints, for example, recommend and sell a pink primer to go with their reds. 

Really?  I would've never guessed. Well, I've got plenty of room on the paint mule for testing... :) 

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Actually thinking about it, have you done a test of your color options on the black base color ? That may also darken them up ? 

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