What Could've Been...Here's to the Losers GB (halfway there!)

[Mig Eater]

 

5 hours ago, helios16v said:

My concept for the GB is more for equipment that was already designed and built (at least 1 operating prototype), but said equipment was turned down for another competitor (or planned purchase was denied/blocked, like the case of the Viggen w/ India).  Think of the multi-aircraft bidding competitions that most countries perform when they are looking at purchasing military equipment...all the losers from the competition (in that countries colors) are the backbone for this proposed GB.

Maybe change the title to "here's to the losers" 😜

[stevehnz]

3 hours ago, helios16v said:

No worries Steve.  It wouldn't be the first time I've had a hard time transferring thoughts to written (or verbal for that matter) communication.  😅

No problem with your coms, just that I hadn't read & digested it sufficiently & started to think outside the lines of your square. Very much my error.

Steve.

Edited May 24, 2019 by stevehnz

[Brad]

I've always talked about building an Isreali Air Force Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10 as a 'what could've have been'. The Czechs at wars end planned to continue building the 109G, but the factory that stored the surplus DB-605 engines burnt down, thus, they had to search for another power plant and the only available one was the Jumo 211. The Avia S-199 would be bought by Israel, but for that factory fire, they might have been flying Bf-109G-10's!

 

I believe the IAF also sniffed around buying surplus Australian Mk 21 Beaufighters too if anyone was keen on them.

[dcrfan]

In 1946-47 a group of New Zealand farmers investigated purchasing a Lancaster bomber with a view of converting it into a top dresser.  It made the local newspapers at the time.  UK actually trialled a Lancaster for top dressing but using a flawed design.  Does this possible 'Damn Duster' met your 'Could have been' criteria?  

 

Paul

[Brad]

I brain stormed a few more with the old man;

 

* Israel also inquired about buying RAAF Hudsons just after wars end.

* Israel thought about buying the F-86, there was even one painted in IAF markings but the proposal never went ahead.

* The Indian Air Force was offered RAAF CAC MK 31 Sabre's but the offer was withdrawn when Pakistan kicked up a stink.

* The F-111 was offered to and rejected by the UK.

* There was a proposal for the RAAF to buy the TSR-2.

* Poland ordered the Spitfire MK 1, but the Germans invaded before delivery could happen and the first batch was diverted to Turkey.

* The French order for the Wildcat was diverted to England as they failed to arrived for the French surrender.

* Australia agreed to buy HMS Invincible and use her as a helicopter carrier right before the Falklands War, but a year later the offer was withdrawn by the UK.

* The RAAF has been offered and rejected the following; Jet Provest, F-104, EE Lightning, SAAB Drakken and B-47.

 

Oh and a civilian one, the 3 door Ford Falcon. My dad worked for many years at Ford Australia and one day the production line accidentally built a Falcon with only 1 back door. The mistake was actually briefly considered being put into production as a Taxi version; ie; no passenger back door on the road side, but it never went ahead.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Brad

[trickyrich]

a 3 door Falcon...... god trapped in the back of one of those would have been purgatory!!! 

[helios16v]

7 hours ago, Paul J said:

How about the Buccaneer. It was on the cards for the West German Navy at the time.

As for the F-20 I have already done one in RCAF colours even though it might not have been officially be a potential operator of it.

Yep, that one is good.  

[helios16v]

5 hours ago, dcrfan said:

In 1946-47 a group of New Zealand farmers investigated purchasing a Lancaster bomber with a view of converting it into a top dresser.  It made the local newspapers at the time.  UK actually trialled a Lancaster for top dressing but using a flawed design.  Does this possible 'Damn Duster' met your 'Could have been' criteria?  

 

Paul

I'll allow it.  Let me know if you'd like to be added to the list.

Edited May 24, 2019 by helios16v

[davepb]

How about a Leuchars based Avro Arrow F.2?

[helios16v]

9 minutes ago, davepb said:

How about a Leuchars based Avro Arrow F.2?

That would be a grand one.  A piece of aircraft history I always forget about.  They made at least 1 functional prototype, and they the attempt to acquire sales through the US & UK was made...though no contracts signed so it never made it into active service.  Let me know if you'd like to be added as an interested party.

 

[Mig Eater]

If the theme is going to be specifically what-if prototype aircraft, then I guess I'll go with an in service TSR.2. Not the most original but I dont have much else in the stash that fit the theme.

[helios16v]

8 minutes ago, Mig Eater said:

If the theme is going to be specifically what-if prototype aircraft, then I guess I'll go with an in service TSR.2. Not the most original but I dont have much else in the stash that fit the theme.

Nope.  It is not limited to prototype aircraft.  In fact the initial idea came about when thinking about what could've happened if countries had made different decisions when purchasing their aircraft.  In most instances multiple aircraft are considered for purchase, tested, evaluated, then numbers run to decide which airframe best fits that countries needs/budget.  More times than not, the aircraft in the selection process are not prototypes, but rather fully developed platforms already in service elsewhere.  My first run-in with the idea was of a RAAF F-104 (turned down in favor of the Mirage IIIO).  Then Rich & I got to chatting about some of the other aircraft the RAAF had been considering using when time came to replace the Mirage.

 

I just chose to open it up to the non-selected prototypes provided they were not selected due to a decision to go w/ a different airframe.

 

And while my main focus is usually on aircraft, there is no reason that armor/ground systems can't apply as well.  Even some civilian applications of the rule can be made.

[Col.]

Cuban Hawker Hunter anyone? Castro asked the UK to supply Hunter FGA.9 during 1959 but the US blocked any sale  

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Heres another one if your allowing armored vehicles as part of this ? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT-70

 

There were 14 pre-production test models made 7 American and 7 West German. In the end it was dropped for the M1 Abrams and Leopard 1 designs. Only problem i can see is there a kit ? 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Rob G]

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

 is there a kit ? 

 

Aurora and Dragon. Probably best to ignore the Aurora kit...

 

 

Another possibility is the Australian Army's Huey Cobra. Bell were keen to sell more of them and did a bit of a demo with a black roo on the side of one. Exact details elude me right now, but anyone who's keen can do some (gasp) research.

 

Edit. I had to look it up. Here's one story with the ring of authenticity.

 

http://adf-serials.com.au/3a16.htm

[trickyrich]

this is the link to the stuff @helios16v and I were talking about, @Rob G has link for the entry for the Cobra

 

http://adf-serials.com.au/mighthavebeens.htm

 

so you can see how the eligibility of a build would work, the build would have had to have been Ordered, Offered or Requested by a Government but cancelled for some reason, or it was part of an unsuccessful evaluation program. This would work for land sea or air equipment, and now it's been opened up to failed bid prototypes, endless interesting choices.

 

Am getting quite excited at the thought of this GB.

 

1 hour ago, Rob G said:

 

Another possibility is the Australian Army's Huey Cobra. Bell were keen to sell more of them and did a bit of a demo with a black roo on the side of one. Exact details elude me right now, but anyone who's keen can do some (gasp) research.

 

Edit. I had to look it up. Here's one story with the ring of authenticity.

 

http://adf-serials.com.au/3a16.htm

I have read another article about this somewhere else...and forgot as usual, but I remembered it was quite a bit more detailed. Might have been where they got a lot of that info from.

 

Bell is still very interested in selling us the AH-1Z Viper, they have teamed up with a local company to help support the bid. The Army is currently going over the options with the ARH-1 Tiger's (what a disaster they have been, 9 years to reach operation readiness status.....sort of), whether to go through the mid-life upgrade process, or replace them. Bell has offered the Viper at an "off the shelf, ready to go" price that you'd think anyone would be silly to not take, the AH-64 is another option. But our defence force procurement....... they seem to be stuck on flogging a dead horse, or Tiger in this case!

[Daniel]

Mmmm

 

Im thinking a Nigerian Air Force Lightning. There was an attempt to sell ex Middle East Lightning’s to Nigeria that never completed.

 

Dan

[Brad]

Don't mention the 1.2 billion dollars we spent on trying to fly the Seasprite heilcopter, but ended up never getting them flight ready and giving them away. There's another; an operational RAN Seasprite.

[Rob S]

10 hours ago, helios16v said:

...  They made at least 1 functional prototype, and they the attempt to acquire sales through the US & UK was made...though no contracts signed so it never made it into active service. 

 

Using that logic (and no I'm not a Vulcan!) the F-20 would qualify for just about any scheme as pretty sure Northrop offered it (and all of the Tooling) to just about anyone on Earth (probably for a $1) just to get it off their hands and see it built (especially given how many F-5s they sold and thus how many it could potentially replace).  Must dig up one of the books on it and see what they say.  

 

So at that rate a RNZAF F-20 could have been more than possible.  

 

Just my 2 Pacific Paesos worth ... 

 

[trickyrich]

I would actually be inclined  to say that a RNZAF F-20 probably should be allowed. New Zealand was on the approved lists for the sale of these aircraft and would have fallen in the "Core 2" list of customer, those wanting only a few aircraft. I do know that the F-20 demonstrators were flown in different marking for the various customers, though I have never seen or her of one being done for New Zealand. They may have been a very remote chance for a customer, unlike the F-16's which were allocated RNZAF serials numbers.

 

I think there'll be quite a few other aircraft/potential customer ones like this.

 

Will make this a very interesting GB!!

[helios16v]

Alright.  You've swayed me.  I'll allow it.

[Colin W]

Another great idea for a group build. I've done an RAF F111k and RN F35 otherwise they would be on the list too.

Please count me in with a RNZAF Gloster Meteor, one delivered but Vampires bought instead. 

 

Colin w

[trickyrich]

me like a lot!!

[helios16v]

On 5/23/2019 at 9:33 PM, stevehnz said:

Seems like I missed the point of the 1st post so no, I don't see it as a goer.

Steve.

Steve, in case you missed it, a RNZAF F-20 would be a go now if you were so inclined.

[Jabba]

I am thinking of a Canadian Tomcat.