CedB Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 Thanks Stuart Eh, what? (Rushes off to Google - other search engines are available. Apparently). Control of Substances Hazardous to Health (COSHH) - you mean some of these are hazardous! Must read the labels. One day. Little-used stuff moved to a box on the floor: Wait! That's my 3M mask in there. I use that all the time, honest Guv… See what happens when you buy an airbrush? All the spray cans you bought for those big models become redundant. I could decant them but my efforts with the Humbrol 24 have showed me that this stuff STICKS - to everything - so I think I'll stick with the airbrush. I am feeling a bit guilty if that helps. Better, and the airbrushes are away from the spray: Nice Sunday morning effort while waiting for the primer to dry. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, CedB said: Nice Sunday morning effort while waiting for the primer to dry. Agreed, nice Sunday morning activity. Mine is busy with grilling sausages and spare ribs for 20.... Ciao Edited June 23, 2019 by giemme 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 3 hours ago, giemme said: Mine is busy with grilling sausages and spare ribs for 20.... Bah, didn't get an invite again... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 3 hours ago, CedB said: Tell me, oh wise ones - where do you keep your AB stand and cleaner bottle? Not wise by any measurement, but I keep mine next to the spraybooth! 3 hours ago, CedB said: Primed: One would never believe that that came out of an Airfix box - flippin' well played Ced!! Keith 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 3 hours ago, giemme said: Agreed, nice Sunday morning activity. Mine is busy with grilling sausages and spare ribs for 20.... Ciao Wow! Have a good BBQ Giorgio 18 minutes ago, keefr22 said: Not wise by any measurement, but I keep mine next to the spraybooth! One would never believe that that came out of an Airfix box - flippin' well played Ced!! Keith Thanks Keith - kind of you to say so The lady in our LMS told me ages ago that you can put enamel over acrylic paint but not the other way around. The only H21 I have is acrylic so that has to go on first. Tricky masking the line: … and covered the rest with film. I'm nervous about spraying Humbrol so I added 'some' of Cookie's thinner (mostly water but a splash of Klear and some flow improver). Do you think I added too much? I do. Either that or the plastic's really slippery. I think I added too much. Just how thick is semi-skimmed milk anyway?? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles87 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Spraybooth! You mean that large cardboard box. My airbrush stand is screwed to one end of my workbench with a piece of old shirt draped over the instruments. Your collection of bottles/pots/jars looks like that part of my bench I’m not working on on any given day. SWMBO comes in occasionally and says I should clear it up, but then I wouldn’t be able to find anything. 😆 Looking good in primer. John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 53 minutes ago, CedB said: Just how thick is semi-skimmed milk anyway?? I gather it's as thick as properly thinned paint for airbrushing ? At least that's what I've read! Don't worry Ced - I do that all the time. The primer job looks nicely good 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookenbacher Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 I've never managed to spray Humbrol acrylic successfully, but I know that the mighty @Procopius has, perhaps he has a trick or two to share. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azureglo Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 5 hours ago, CedB said: Wow! Have a good BBQ Giorgio Thanks Keith - kind of you to say so The lady in our LMS told me ages ago that you can put enamel over acrylic paint but not the other way around. The only H21 I have is acrylic so that has to go on first. Tricky masking the line: … and covered the rest with film. I'm nervous about spraying Humbrol so I added 'some' of Cookie's thinner (mostly water but a splash of Klear and some flow improver). Do you think I added too much? I do. Either that or the plastic's really slippery. I think I added too much. Just how thick is semi-skimmed milk anyway?? Comrade Ced, when will you change to the Glory that is Mr Color and Leveling thinner? Acrylic painting is for children arts projects ,,, You have a face mask tovarich , embrace the solvents!! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob85 Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 I can’t help with the spraying side of things, but I only ever use water with Humbrol paint and it levels nice enough with a brush. What I can say is that I fear you haven’t burnished down the tape enough and with that tin paint you will get a lot of seepage 😬 you have scrubbed her up a treat and looks fantastic under that primer. Rob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Ooer gooey looking fin I am wondering about the lady in your LMS mon brave Its about the paint, all about the paint so did she really say you can't put acrylic on the enamel? Very confused about that acos enamel is spirit based paint which means volatility and degassing needed Acrylics are generally fairly benign with a water based thinning medium which tends to mean it is happy sitting atop a dried off enamel but an enamel in its spirit thinning agent is volatile and can melt the layers of pigment of acrylic I think she meant to say acrylics can sit safely on dry enamels Spraying acrylics, I prefer to spray Tamiya acrylics rather than Humbrol Vallejo rather than Humbrol Tamiya beats even Vallejo for spraying but the real decisions? Enamels beat the lot, all day any time As long as you use Jamie's Colour coats which for me have taken on the mantle long ago lost by Humbrol Authentic Modern Humbrol enamels do not work as well for me Tell you what, ignore me and listen to Giorgio 😆 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 9 hours ago, CedB said: Just how thick is semi-skimmed milk anyway?? The greatest mystery of the modelling world. 6 hours ago, Cookenbacher said: I've never managed to spray Humbrol acrylic successfully, but I know that the mighty @Procopius has, perhaps he has a trick or two to share. Successful might be an overstatement. I managed a very grainy finish using the starter set red on a Red Arrows Gnat, and before the glory of Colourcoats was revealed to me, I used the Humbrol Dark Slate Grey, but it was always touch and go. Many teeth were gnashed, tears were shed, vile oaths, I mean just absolutely vile stuff, were uttered... I generally had to do a lot of spraying on a paint mule, and it was always a crapshoot. I just thinned with water and tested frequently. 4 hours ago, perdu said: I think she meant to say acrylics can sit safely on dry enamels Definitely the way I'd go, Perds! 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 14 hours ago, Biggles87 said: Spraybooth! You mean that large cardboard box. My airbrush stand is screwed to one end of my workbench with a piece of old shirt draped over the instruments. Your collection of bottles/pots/jars looks like that part of my bench I’m not working on on any given day. SWMBO comes in occasionally and says I should clear it up, but then I wouldn’t be able to find anything. 😆 Looking good in primer. John Thanks John 13 hours ago, hendie said: I gather it's as thick as properly thinned paint for airbrushing ? At least that's what I've read! Don't worry Ced - I do that all the time. The primer job looks nicely good Thanks hendie, helpful 8 hours ago, rob85 said: I can’t help with the spraying side of things, but I only ever use water with Humbrol paint and it levels nice enough with a brush. What I can say is that I fear you haven’t burnished down the tape enough and with that tin paint you will get a lot of seepage 😬 you have scrubbed her up a treat and looks fantastic under that primer. Rob Fear not Rob - burnished it was (the bottom bit). The tape holding the film down wan't but that should be OK? 10 hours ago, Cookenbacher said: I've never managed to spray Humbrol acrylic successfully, but I know that the mighty @Procopius has, perhaps he has a trick or two to share. Thanks Cookie - I may be on a hiding to nothing here then… 9 hours ago, azureglo said: Comrade Ced, when will you change to the Glory that is Mr Color and Leveling thinner? Acrylic painting is for children arts projects ,,, You have a face mask tovarich , embrace the solvents!! Thanks Anil, but I'll stick to my beloved Colourcoats, unless I get a guilt feeling again to use up my big stock of Humbrol 8 hours ago, perdu said: Ooer gooey looking fin I am wondering about the lady in your LMS mon brave Its about the paint, all about the paint so did she really say you can't put acrylic on the enamel? Very confused about that acos enamel is spirit based paint which means volatility and degassing needed Acrylics are generally fairly benign with a water based thinning medium which tends to mean it is happy sitting atop a dried off enamel but an enamel in its spirit thinning agent is volatile and can melt the layers of pigment of acrylic I think she meant to say acrylics can sit safely on dry enamels Spraying acrylics, I prefer to spray Tamiya acrylics rather than Humbrol Vallejo rather than Humbrol Tamiya beats even Vallejo for spraying but the real decisions? Enamels beat the lot, all day any time As long as you use Jamie's Colour coats which for me have taken on the mantle long ago lost by Humbrol Authentic Modern Humbrol enamels do not work as well for me Tell you what, ignore me and listen to Giorgio 😆 Thanks Bill I'm sure you're right and a quick Google confirms it. To be honest I've probably forgotten what she said. I used to think I had a good memory but now I can't remember if I do or not… 4 hours ago, Procopius said: The greatest mystery of the modelling world. Successful might be an overstatement. I managed a very grainy finish using the starter set red on a Red Arrows Gnat, and before the glory of Colourcoats was revealed to me, I used the Humbrol Dark Slate Grey, but it was always touch and go. Many teeth were gnashed, tears were shed, vile oaths, I mean just absolutely vile stuff, were uttered... I generally had to do a lot of spraying on a paint mule, and it was always a crapshoot. I just thinned with water and tested frequently. Definitely the way I'd go, Perds! Thanks PC Sounds like a definite hiding to nothing then. I shall be sensible (for once) and move the Humbrol away from the booth. It's a good job all this has given me pause for thought. Not only about spraying the Humbrol but also the scheme. The instructions would have me paint the entire upper surface H164 Dark Sea Grey and the sides and undersides H156 Dark Camouflage Grey. That's not right is it. The pictures I've found on the 'net show the same grey overall except the nosecone and maybe the intake edges? I'll try to find a definite reference (ha!) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 Only 16 minutes? Seemed like a lifetime… The IPMS Tornado SIG says: "By 2007 the camouflage scheme for the GR.4‘s had transitioned to overall Medium Sea Grey (Xtracolor X003) with Dark Sea Grey (Xtracolor X004) radomes. With repairs and parts being 'recycled' from RTP, individual airframes can display considerable variation across different panel." Looks more like the photos and explains some pictures having some darker panels. I have some Lifecolor MSG so I may be saved! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 On 6/20/2019 at 1:44 PM, Fritag said: I'm sure you mean 'port' and 'starboard'....... Or “left” and “the other left, you idiot”, as my Beefer used to tell me 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Or “left” and “the other left, you idiot”, as my Beefer used to tell me Thanks Crisp; is that your left or mine? More black this morning. I'm not going to blame Cookie for this: I'm just going to add to his definition: "I'm not too scientific with the proportions, but it's mostly distilled water - let's say 75% water, 20% Future, and 5% Flow improver and retarder added in 'drops' (I've added more and more retarder as summer has arrived). I use this same concoction with Stynylrez, Vallejo, Lifecolor, Model Master Acryl and Badger paints, all without problems (for Tamiya, I use Tamiya X-20 since it seems to like being thinned with alcohol). Whatever you do, don't leave it in the bottle for months or the Future will clot" Like this: Yuk. Rather than clean the bottle I just put some flow improver and water in the cup and then added H21 acrylic until it was a bit like semi-skimmed milk. Even then there was very little pigment laying down on some paper so I used light coats. Seemed to work. Rob was worried about this masking: … and I was confident that the thin tape underneath had been burnished down enough. Was I right? Almost. I'll need to let that dry well as it needs to be masked up. Fingers crossed 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, CedB said: … and I was confident that the thin tape underneath had been burnished down enough. Was I right? I'm sure I've already mentioned this somewhere, sometimes, but here's what I do to prevent paint seeping underneath masks: I go along the mask edges with a fine tipped brush dipped in Future or the likes, so as to "seal" said edges. It also has the effect, when used with Oramask stuff, to prevent any lifting during spraying. HTH Ciao 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 43 minutes ago, giemme said: I'm sure I've already mentioned this somewhere, sometimes, but here's what I do to prevent paint seeping underneath masks: I go along the mask edges with a fine tipped brush dipped in Future or the likes, so as to "seal" said edges. It also has the effect, when used with Oramask stuff, to prevent any lifting during spraying. HTH Ciao Thanks Giorgio I'll give that a try, if I remember! To be honest I think most of the paint came in through the back. Serve me right. White bits brushed with Citadel Model Color Off White: Really hard to get a good photo but at least that shows how shiny the black is 👍 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 3 hours ago, CedB said: The IPMS Tornado SIG says: "By 2007 the camouflage scheme for the GR.4‘s had transitioned to overall Medium Sea Grey (Xtracolor X003) with Dark Sea Grey (Xtracolor X004) radomes. With repairs and parts being 'recycled' from RTP, individual airframes can display considerable variation across different panel." I didn't take any pictures but that perfectly describes the Tornado in the Midland Air Museum yesterday Melchie (yes the General was there, in mufti) observed it was unlike an aircraft in service but it looked quite like those I saw at Marham to me Almost as many greys as a Merlin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Coombs Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Isn't the paint sequence LEA (as in lacquer, enamel, acrylic)? You can use enamels and acrylics over lacquer, and acrylics over enamel. Doing it the other way gives you a Cocteau Twins EP cover 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Swindell Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Steve Coombs said: You can use enamels and acrylics over lacquer, and acrylics over enamel. Generally speaking, yes, if you are using lacquers that us a 'hot' solvent and water based acrylics. However, it's not that clear cut, and the important factor is the paint solvent. If the paint solvent being used for the overcoat is 'hotter' than the undercoat it can cause problems. There are now modern water based lacquer and enamel paints (though not specifically model paints AFAIK) and acrylics can have a wide range of solvents from water to cellulose. So a hot acrylic over a water based lacquer or enamel could create the same problems as a traditional lacquer over acrylics. Best advice if using dissimilar paints is to test them on a paint mule before putting the final touches to your $$$$ masterpiece. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 4 hours ago, perdu said: I didn't take any pictures but that perfectly describes the Tornado in the Midland Air Museum yesterday Melchie (yes the General was there, in mufti) observed it was unlike an aircraft in service but it looked quite like those I saw at Marham to me Almost as many greys as a Merlin Thanks Bill I hope you had a good show - a bit far for me, sadly (although I will make the effort for Telford with some American Friends!) I've checked the scheme and this model is of ZA492 so I'll try to add some odd panels as seen in the reference shots; Google 'Tornado ZA492' and you'll see some nice (copyright) ones. 4 hours ago, Steve Coombs said: Isn't the paint sequence LEA (as in lacquer, enamel, acrylic)? You can use enamels and acrylics over lacquer, and acrylics over enamel. Doing it the other way gives you a Cocteau Twins EP cover 4 hours ago, Dave Swindell said: Generally speaking, yes, if you are using lacquers that us a 'hot' solvent and water based acrylics. However, it's not that clear cut, and the important factor is the paint solvent. If the paint solvent being used for the overcoat is 'hotter' than the undercoat it can cause problems. There are now modern water based lacquer and enamel paints (though not specifically model paints AFAIK) and acrylics can have a wide range of solvents from water to cellulose. So a hot acrylic over a water based lacquer or enamel could create the same problems as a traditional lacquer over acrylics. Best advice if using dissimilar paints is to test them on a paint mule before putting the final touches to your $$$$ masterpiece. Thanks Steve and Dave - great advice; try it first! I promised earlier that I had a plan for a slow speed 'power' tool for use when the Dremel is too 'hot'. What's this? Ta da: My daughter has one similar to this and I've always been envious. For just under £24 on the big river site it's a bargain. You can get other similar ones without all the bits but then you don't get the cool metal case. Of course I now have thousands of bits but hey, you never know when the might come in… To make it useable I've also bought one of these: Not the best quality but cheap as chips and it handles 0.3 - 6.5mm. It's a bit wobbly in the driver but should be good for sanding and drilling. Hopefully. And I've got a cool metal case! Sad man 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Many hundreds of years ago Missus Perdu bought me an Expo drill set which has zillions of different bits including sanding drums, routers and rotary saw blades I have mine on a variable power converter which gives me six speed settings It allows me to get fairly brutal if I wish or stay slowly controlled Its main, nay only drawback is that time has wrought its influence upon its bearings and there can be a tendency for the bits to wander before being drawn into firm control The modern, updated version is in the Expo catealogue, if I needed another I would buy it like a shot I would hesitate to use a drill that simply sits wobbly in a screwdriver bit hex drive Hexed I'd call it... Nice case though Ced Nice 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimrod54 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 10 hours ago, CedB said: The IPMS Tornado SIG says: "By 2007 the camouflage scheme for the GR.4‘s had transitioned to overall Medium Sea Grey (Xtracolor X003) with Dark Sea Grey (Xtracolor X004) radomes. With repairs and parts being 'recycled' from RTP, individual airframes can display considerable variation across different panel." Forgive me for posting this Ced, but here is a photo of the Midlands Air Museum Tornado taken last year in late November sunshine. As @perdu says, it matches the SIG description perfectly. by John L, on Flickr 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 Thanks Bill - that Expo drill looks like a tool that lasts. I may have to get one if the screwdriver fails to satisfy John thanks for the picture and I'm always happy for people to post useful things in my threads Masking the fin - tricky. I got out the 'Canopy Masking Rescue' set and found nothing, again. There was what I wanted on one of the other left-over sheets: Standard tape down the line and then cheap painters' tape to cover the rest: Be careful when you're masking in the summer. If you've got your shorts on (as I have) then rubbing the tape on your legs (as usual) to remove some of the stick can be painful! As suggested by Giorgio I ran some Future / Klear down the edge of the tape with a thin brush then blasted on some Lifecolor MSG: I'll rip the masking off later and see how I've done. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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