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elger

Lancaster wreck picture puzzle time!

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Posted (edited)

The following three (yellowish) images are photos of the wreck of Lancaster W4308 UV-C of 460 Squadron (RAAF) lost during the night of 23/24 January 1943:

 

cyXuoWz.jpg

 

EFjyxHR.jpg

 

6VkZXMn.jpg

 

My connection with W4308 is that according to stories that were told, when the wreckage was removed from the field next to my old home village the crash landing was made it was temporarily stored in the parking lot behind the house where I grew up.

 

Now, yesterday I came across some photos in a PDF version of The Defense of the Reich: Hitler's Nightfighter Planes and Pilots by Holger Nauroth and Werner Held (translated from Die deutsche Nagdjagd) from 1982. One close up of the aircraft's bomb markings indicates, according to the caption, that the aircraft in question ("of an Australian squadron") was lost during an operation to Mannheim. W4308 was lost on a mission to Dusseldorf.

 

x1NoY6D.png

 

The other two kangaroos are marked "Stuttgart" and "Turin"; this sequence followed by "Mannheim" follows the first three operations of 460 Squadron performed immediately after converting to Lancasters in November 1942 (http://www.gordonstooke.com/460squadron/operations.htm). But, 460 only lost a Lancaster on the first mission to Stuttgart (none on the operations to Turin or Mannheim immediately after). In fact, according to http://www.adf-serials.com.au/lancaster.htm no RAAF Lancasters were lost on the Mannheim operation.

 

So, I think that the photos in The Defense of the Reich are of W4308. What are your thoughts on this, if you compare the photos below to the yellowish ones above?

 

4vb4KYR.png

 

Then another question: where do these photos in The Defense of the Reich: Hitler's Nightfighter Planes and Pilots by Nauroth and Held come from? Do better versions exist? I would love to see them!

 

 

 

Edited by elger
fixed typos and other mistakes

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They looks similar indeed, however I can see difference in exhaust pipe cover colour. "Yellowed takes" show it dark, from German book are light.

J-W

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, JWM said:

I can see difference in exhaust pipe cover colour. "Yellowed takes" show it dark, from German book are light

Looks like the same plane.

 

I think that the outer engine cover has been removed in the top 'yellowed' photo, so what can be seen is the engine and actual exhausts.

Edited by Johnson

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thanks all - the more I look at the photos the more I'm convinced too

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Elger

 

Not sure if this helps but the Pilot reported having to belly land with the aircraft on fire near Luevorden, having been damaged by a Bf110 whilst on a raid against Dusseldorf. Four of the crew casualty files are available in the NAA if you haven't already seen them.

 

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1063292

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1072557

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1073550

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1073551

 

As for the pictures I agree with the others, the angle of the blades and the holes in the perspex of the front turret port side are exactly the same, therefore the same aircraft.

 

Buz

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5 hours ago, Buz said:

Elger

 

Not sure if this helps but the Pilot reported having to belly land with the aircraft on fire near Luevorden, having been damaged by a Bf110 whilst on a raid against Dusseldorf. Four of the crew casualty files are available in the NAA if you haven't already seen them.

 

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1063292 

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1072557

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1073550

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1073551

 

As for the pictures I agree with the others, the angle of the blades and the holes in the perspex of the front turret port side are exactly the same, therefore the same aircraft.

 

Buz

 

I did not see those records before - most fascinating, thank you! "Luevorden" undoubtedly refers to Leeuwarden (which is actually a pretty close approximation of how that's pronounced, phonetically) - which today is about an hour's travel away from where the crash landing occurred.

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One more thing: where on the nose do you think the kangaroo mission markings in the detail shot would have been? Can't see them in the shots from further away.

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Are you sure the kangaroo markings are of the same aircraft?

 

I can't see them in the images of the aircraft in the field, and would expect your second photo with the guy standing next to the nose would have featured the nose art if it was present.

It would typically be under the cockpit or just behind the nose turret.

 

Thanks for posting the images, they are very interesting.

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I do not read the Held/Nauroth caption to imply it was lost on a raid to Mannheim, but on (probably) the next one thereafter - with just the city name from the Mannheim raid added but not yet the roo symbol.

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6 hours ago, hovering said:

Are you sure the kangaroo markings are of the same aircraft?

 

I can't see them in the images of the aircraft in the field, and would expect your second photo with the guy standing next to the nose would have featured the nose art if it was present.

It would typically be under the cockpit or just behind the nose turret.

 

Thanks for posting the images, they are very interesting.

not sure but I think it's likely - the authors placed the photos together on the same page and the captions discuss an aircraft of an Australian squadron - so if it is the aircraft from 460 squadron that I think it is it makes sense that the photo of the kangaroo nose art, with the names matching the missions the aircraft had been on matching.

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