Humbrol match for USAAF Neutral Grey

[Work In Progress]

Precision is important when discussing the minutiae of colours as we are here. It would be really helpful if people would use the correct name for the US colour Neutral Gray. It's a proper noun, it's a name, it needs the US spelling. 

This may seem like a pedantic point but we are by definition engaged in a pedantic discussion. Otherwise we might as well paint the underneath of a P-51B or B-17F, oh, I don;t know, just some kind of neutral grey.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Ratch]

Many of us are aware that the colour call-outs on the instruction sheets in kits tend to lean toward the manufacturer's associated paint brand, whether, and more often not, the colour is inaccurate. One would hope that the colour conversion charts so abundant might offer some clarity, but these too seem to be drawn up in a haphazard way. I asked someone about the paint he used on a model and he advised Revell 68 Dark Green. Leaving aside any question of accuracy; I don't use Revell paints so was looking for an alternative. Over the years I have constructed a spreadsheet based on the Humbrol range (which was my first choice for many years), linking to supposed equivalents of other brands. Searching for Revell 68 I have three entries and these are linked to:

 

Humbrol 86 Matt Light Olive = Vallejo Model Air 71011 Tank Green = Vallejo Model Color 70888 92 Olive Grey = Humbrol Authentics HG.14 Luftwaffe Olivgrun = Hobby Color H420 Semi-gloss RLM 80 Olive Green = Tamiya XF-26 Dark Green = Xtracolour 113 WWII Faded Olive Drab

Humbrol 91 Matt Black Green = Vallejo Model Air 71018 Camouflage Black Green = Vallejo Model Air 71021 Black Green = Vallejo Model Color 70896 99 German Camouflage Extra Dark Green = Humbrol Authentics HG.1 Luftwaffe 70 Black Green = Hobby Color H65 Semi-gloss RLM 70 Black Green = Tamiya XF-27 Black Green

Humbrol 117 Matt US Light Green = Vallejo Model Air 71092 Medium Green = Humbrol Authentics HS.205 Scenics (I) Foliage = Hobby Color H303 Semi-gloss Green FS34102

Clearly Revell 68 cannot be a match for all those colours, so one has to read conversion charts with a pinch of salt. My own tendency would be to choose a colour that I think would be right for the subject. Of course I could be a mile out, but the best advice I was given was "if it looks good to you, its good enough". I admire the works of specialists like Mike Starmer, and he would no doubt offer a better answer - particularly for a vehicle in a specific theatre in a given period.

Conversion charts are probably a source of more confusion than a help to the modeller.

[Sturmovik]

1 hour ago, Ratch said:

Revell 68

Revell lists their 68 as RAF Dark Green though.

Regarding neutral grey, I use Revell 43 Middle Grey as an equivalent. Not really sure if it's accurate, but it looks nice.

 

 

[Ratch]

Revel 68 is just an illustration - nothing to do with Neutral Grey. If you look at lots of conversion charts they will offer many matches that are not matches at all.

[Tbolt]

13 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

There's very often confusion with paint matches on the web, some of it justified and some not justified...

Regarding the paints you mentioned, I struggle to see how Humbrol 127 and 128 could be suggested as matches for WW2 Neutral Grey ! These were introduced as matches for Light and Dark Ghost Grey as used by the USAF on their F-15s in the '70s and many other modern US types.. two light blue-greys that look nothing like Neutral Grey 43.

The match with Humbrol 126 is the result of a case of homonymy: 126 is a match for Grey FS 36270, one of the shades used in the F-16 standard scheme, a colour that is known as Neutral Grey (although FS colours don't have names).. the problem is that this is not the same as the wartime Neutral Grey but the two are sometimes confused in modelling forums.

Similar story for 156: it was introduced as a match for British Medium Sea Grey, a collour sure lighter than Neutral Grey 43 that has as closer match in the FS system FS 36270...

 

The colour that Humbrol made specifically for US Neutral Grey 43 was 176, that however is long OOP. Of the various matches suggested and without wanting to mix paints, the one I'd use is probably 156: I used this in the past and found it an acceptable match.. what wasn't acceptable was the quality of the paint, but those were the days of the worst Humbrol paints ever, hopefully things are better with newer production tins.

The paint I use today is Vallejo 992... much better quality and much easier to use, both with brush and airbrush and a good match for Neutral Grey

 

I've used Humbrol 126 as NG, not because I'm confused about what is a match but because it's about trying to get the right contrast between colours ( then of course there's the previously mentioned colour variation with Humbrol, so one persons 126 isn't necessarily the same as anothers ). If you use a colour that's as dark as NG, I'm sure you are aware that a gloss varnish followed by a matt ones normally gives you a slightly darker finish, add to that weathering and you can end up with something that looks too dark.  Having said that my last NG I found 126 mixed with 106 to be a better match for what I'm after.

 

Then there's photos of aircraft that seem to show, NG, or what should be NG, as a slightly lighter shade than the more regular dark one. Of course it's not great trying to match photos, but sometimes it's the best we can do and the contrast between colours can help us.

 

Just photo/light variations or the paint used or weathering? Who can be 100% sure?

 

 

 

 

 

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Precision is important when discussing the minutiae of colours as we are here. It would be really helpful if people would use the correct name for the US colour Neutral Gray. It's a proper noun, it's a name, it needs the US spelling. 

This may seem like a pedantic point but we are by definition engaged in a pedantic discussion. Otherwise we might as well paint the underneath of a P-51B or B-17F, oh, I don;t know, just some kind of neutral grey.

In that case maybe we should be more accurate than just calling it Neutral Gray, by using it's shade number as well, we wouldn't want to get Neutral Gray 43 mixed up with Neutral Gray 32

[Graham Boak]

Whilst agreeing that NG 43 shouldn't be confused with NG 32, (and maybe I'll look up later to see just what the colour difference might be) It does seem unlikely that NG 32 would be in use on P-51s, B-17s and the like.  So in this case there's no possibility of confusing the two.  I entirely agree with using capital letters when referring to a specific paint.

 

The value of colour photography can be seen in photos 1 and 3 on post #30, where the colour appears with a distinct blue tinge.  Neutral Gray was not named after a political attitude, (as with the USN's Neutrality Gray, if it was ever officially called that) but because it was neutral in shade, i.e. something between black and white only.

[TheRealMrEd]

Just my 2 cents worth, but as a modeler on the OTHER side of the pond, I can't imagine why any modeler on THAT side of the pond wouldn't head straight for Sovereign Hobbies and Colourcoat enamels.  Jamie has several shades of OD, including the slightly brownish one mentioned here, and the enamel paints work as good as the Hubrol of yesteryear, with very fine grain.  Here is an example of the brownish OD and the Neutral Gray:

 

 

Good luck in your efforts,

 

Ed

Edited May 14, 2019 by TheRealMrEd

[Tbolt]

48 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Whilst agreeing that NG 43 shouldn't be confused with NG 32, (and maybe I'll look up later to see just what the colour difference might be) It does seem unlikely that NG 32 would be in use on P-51s, B-17s and the like.  So in this case there's no possibility of confusing the two.  I entirely agree with using capital letters when referring to a specific paint.

 

The value of colour photography can be seen in photos 1 and 3 on post #30, where the colour appears with a distinct blue tinge.  Neutral Gray was not named after a political attitude, (as with the USN's Neutrality Gray, if it was ever officially called that) but because it was neutral in shade, i.e. something between black and white only.

NG 32 appears to be close to NG 43 and I don't really know the extent of it's use but Dana Bell mentions it as be the recommended shade for the AAC in 1940 and that P-40's used it at the start.

 

I understand colour photo colour tints and balances and what NG is. If I colour corrected those photo it wouldn't change the contrast between the colours,  but of course the other colours can vary a lot to, but to me it's a lot about getting the right look and the contrast between colours is a big part of that 

 

Of course you can paint your models how you want but sometimes we have to use the best evidence we have and since not all aircraft were painted with the exact specified shade ( how often was NG mixed with the exact correct proportions? ) we have to use what evidence we have.

[Smithy]

4 minutes ago, TheRealMrEd said:

I can't imagine why any modeler on THAT side of the pond wouldn't head straight for Sovereign Hobbies and Colourcoat enamels.

 

Considering I started the thread looking for a Humbrol match I imagine this probably relates to me in some way. I might me on that side of the pond but am unfortunately slightly north and over another bit of drink again. And although I'm sure Sovereign Models and Colourcoat enamels would be a splendid choice they can't send them outside of the UK and there's no distributor in Norway.

 

In relation to Shangri-La, and although I am no expert on the specifics of USAAF colours, I do have quite a large interest in the 4th FG and have nearly all of the books specifically published about them, so I've had a good, old rummage in them looking at the photos (and there are quite a few, although it was only with in service for a very short length of time is was widely photographed) of this aircraft , and I think it's safe to say that 43-6913 was almost certainly sporting the darker shade of NG.

[Tbolt]

22 minutes ago, TheRealMrEd said:

Just my 2 cents worth, but as a modeler on the OTHER side of the pond, I can't imagine why any modeler on THAT side of the pond wouldn't hed straight for Sovereign Hobbies and Colourcoat enamels.  Jamie has several shades of OD, including the slightly brownish one mentioned here, and the enamel paints work as good as the Hubrol of yesteryear, with very fine grain.  Here is an example of the brownish OD and the Neutral Gray:

 

 

Good luck in your efforts,

 

Ed

Colour Coats are my go to enamel now, but I have lots of stock of Humbrol to use up first. Though I do find Colour Coats NG to be a little dark ( like I said after varnishes and weathering ) though this tin was from the White Ensign days, so it may have changed.

[Andre B]

2 hours ago, Smithy said:

 

Considering I started the thread looking for a Humbrol match I imagine this probably relates to me in some way. I might me on that side of the pond but am unfortunately slightly north and over another bit of drink again. And although I'm sure Sovereign Models and Colourcoat enamels would be a splendid choice they can't send them outside of the UK and there's no distributor in Norway.

 

In relation to Shangri-La, and although I am no expert on the specifics of USAAF colours, I do have quite a large interest in the 4th FG and have nearly all of the books specifically published about them, so I've had a good, old rummage in them looking at the photos (and there are quite a few, although it was only with in service for a very short length of time is was widely photographed) of this aircraft , and I think it's safe to say that 43-6913 was almost certainly sporting the darker shade of NG.

Where in Norway för you live? Maybe I van send you an spraycan of Tamiya Haze Grey...

 

Cheers / André

[TheRealMrEd]

Smithy,

 

I feel your pain!  There are only two distributors for Colourcoats in the US.   Might be time to nudge a hobby shop in the area to step up, or perhaps to induce a friend to vacation a little further south just one time...

 

It really is a load of BS that airlines don't want to fly sealed tins of enamel paint around.

 

Ed

[e8n2]

3 hours ago, TheRealMrEd said:

Smithy,

 

I feel your pain!  There are only two distributors for Colourcoats in the US.   Might be time to nudge a hobby shop in the area to step up, or perhaps to induce a friend to vacation a little further south just one time...

 

It really is a load of BS that airlines don't want to fly sealed tins of enamel paint around.

 

Ed

Actually there is now only one distributor in the states and that is H&B Hobbies.  Most of the stuff seems to be out of stock right now.  I sent an e-mail to Sovereign Hobbies and suggested adding a second distributor, namely Sprue Brothers, but never got a reply back.  We definitely need a second U.S. distributor as the service for the past few months from H&B has been less than stellar.

Later,

Dave

[Smithy]

6 hours ago, Andre B said:

Where in Norway för you live? Maybe I van send you an spraycan of Tamiya Haze Grey...

 

Cheers / André

 

I'm right up the north. Thank you so very much for the tremendously kind offer Andre! I'd say yes but I was having a look in my paintbox and I realised that I actually have Humbrol 27 as well - goodness knows why I bought it or what for but it's there. And I have a lot of 64 which I use for RAF MSG so I'll either go for 64 with a smidge of black as Patrice suggested or the 27. My tin of 27 actually looks like it might be quite a nice match for that darker shade of NG but we'll see once I'm ready to paint the thing.

 

Thanks once again though.

 

4 hours ago, TheRealMrEd said:

Smithy,

 

I feel your pain!  There are only two distributors for Colourcoats in the US.   Might be time to nudge a hobby shop in the area to step up, or perhaps to induce a friend to vacation a little further south just one time...

 

It really is a load of BS that airlines don't want to fly sealed tins of enamel paint around.

 

Ed

 

After living for many years in very big cities where you could get exactly what you wanted when you wanted it, I have to work with what I have access to now. I'm actually fine with Humbrol as I've been using them ever since returning to the hobby. I have a lovely chap down in Oslo who has a large model shop who I can get more "esoteric" supplies from but paint-wise I'm pretty restricted to Humbrol, Vallejo and Tamiya which is in truth more than enough.

[Giorgio N]

10 hours ago, Tbolt said:

I've used Humbrol 126 as NG, not because I'm confused about what is a match but because it's about trying to get the right contrast between colours ( then of course there's the previously mentioned colour variation with Humbrol, so one persons 126 isn't necessarily the same as anothers ). If you use a colour that's as dark as NG, I'm sure you are aware that a gloss varnish followed by a matt ones normally gives you a slightly darker finish, add to that weathering and you can end up with something that looks too dark.  Having said that my last NG I found 126 mixed with 106 to be a better match for what I'm after.

 

Then there's photos of aircraft that seem to show, NG, or what should be NG, as a slightly lighter shade than the more regular dark one. Of course it's not great trying to match photos, but sometimes it's the best we can do and the contrast between colours can help us.

 

Just photo/light variations or the paint used or weathering? Who can be 100% sure?

 

 

Starting from a lighter paint sure is a very valid approach and is actually the same I take when painting most of my models. Personally I lighten the "proper" paint and then use the latter to add variations but of course starting from a different lighter paint leads to the same results (I should know as I've once used Barley Grey as a base for an Ocean Grey finish...).

Scale effect may also lead to the choice of a similar colour if the modeller follows this "philosophy".

Personally however I would agree that your mix of 126 and 106 would give a better match. This based on the two tins I have of 126, that are from the good old days when Humbrol paint was properly made, and that are good matches for FS 36270, with later variations in Humbrol paints it would be hard to tell which one to use... I know that Humbrol also changed the colours associated to several paints at a certain point, but I lost track of which ones changed and how.

 

My comment on the confusion  was not aimed at you but is based on several threads in the past where modellers read neautral grey on tins of FS 36270 and assumed it was the same colour used in WW2, while we know it's not. That's the beauty of using numbers in colour systems, they don't lead to as much confusion as simple names... 😃

Speaking of numbers, I remember being corrected years ago by a researcher with a huge knowledge of USAF camouflage and markings who shouted to me that FS colours have no name...  I now try to simply use the numbers as I realised with time how dangerous is to attach a name when there have been many paints from different eras and different users with similar names...

 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Giorgio N

[Work In Progress]

Fortunately this thread is not about FS colours, none of which existed during the period we are discussing here

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Starting from a lighter paint sure is a very valid approach and is actually the same I take when painting most of my models. Personally I lighten the "proper" paint and then use the latter to add variations but of course starting from a different lighter paint leads to the same results (I should know as I've once used Barley Grey as a base for an Ocean Grey finish...).

Scale effect may also lead to the choice of a similar colour if the modeller follows this "philosophy".

Personally however I would agree that your mix of 126 and 106 would give a better match. This based on the two tins I have of 126, that are from the good old days when Humbrol paint was properly made, and that are good matches for FS 36270, with later variations in Humbrol paints it would be hard to tell which one to use... I know that Humbrol also changed the colours associated to several paints at a certain point, but I lost track of which ones changed and how.

 

My comment on the confusion  was not aimed at you but is based on several threads in the past where modellers read neautral grey on tins of FS 36270 and assumed it was the same colour used in WW2, while we know it's not. That's the beauty of using numbers in colour systems, they don't lead to as much confusion as simple names... 😃

Speaking of numbers, I remember being corrected years ago by a researcher with a huge knowledge of USAF camouflage and markings who shouted to me that FS colours have no name...  I now try to simply use the numbers as I realised with time how dangerous is to attach a name when there have been many paints from different eras and different users with similar names...

 

 

 

There must have been plenty of confusion over NG, just look at the variation that warbirds have been painted, B-17 Thunderbird being a good example of a colour that looks far too light. Though it’s still hard to say exactly how much variation there was back in the forties.