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F-5E Lightning - Paint colour?


RobL

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Hi

 

Stupid question time...

 

What was the blue that the USAF painted their F-5E Lightning recon planes in?  Was it the standard RAF PRU blue or their own variation, and if so does it have an FS number or a good match in acrylic brand paints such as Tamiya or Vallejo?


Thanks.

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Sometimes PRU Blue was used, but usually the early PR Lightnings were painted in something called Haze Paint, which (IIRC) required a gloss black cloak followed by light oversprays of a near-white ending up (when new) with an appropriate blue.  This however wore rapidly and can usually be distinguished in photographs by large dark areas were handling or aerodynamic wear occurred.  When it was discovered that this finish actually glowed at altitude its application was stopped, and it was replaced by convenient blue shades.  Good luck.

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Off the top of my head, there were two iterations of the haze paint. The first was as Graham explained, a multi coat application that didn’t hold up well. The second was normal paint (this was all before the FS system was in place so no FS numbers) @Dana Bell for a much better explanation.

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I found a pic here;
P-38-and-F-5.jpg

 

Using the P-38 in the background OD over Neutral Gray scheme as a measure, the blue looks way brighter than PRU blue.

Judging from the red borders on the stars 'n bars, this was taken in 1943.
Here's also a clip on youtube;

 

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3 hours ago, RobL said:

What was the blue that the USAF painted their F-5E Lightning recon planes in? 

 

for a background to haze paint,  see 

http://34thprs.photorecon.org//html/aircraft/haze.html

 

Is there a specific plane you are interested in?   Here, in general,  a more focused question will get a better answer, ideally a photo, and that would tell you what the scheme (possibly) was.

IIRC the F-5E is more likely to be synthetic haze paint

 

I believe this is synthetic haze

Lightning-02-px800.jpg?fit=800,355&ssl=1

 

 

this is worn haze paint

ERP002KR.jpg

 

this is a model,  but looks to be a good stab at haze http://www.hyperscale.com/features/2000/f5aws_1.htm 

f5aws_13.jpg

 

read the linked article though

 

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the haze blue finish require a black 44 undercoat at the topside and white 46 at the underside, the graded delimitation between these two shades is  on large  area.

Then haze blue paint was sprayed to obtain 8% reflectance on the black to 45% on the white measured with photometer. The lower insignia receive as much paint as underside.

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9 minutes ago, RobL said:

Seems it's as much of a minefield as Olive Drab! 

Olive Drab isn't a minefield, it's just the answer(s) are complex,  and you are dealing with an awful lot of planes and paint.

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Is there a specific plane you are interested in?   Here, in general,  a more focused question will get a better answer, ideally a photo, and that would tell you what the scheme (possibly) was.

 

what I meant by this is,  specify the plane you are interested in, and if you are lucky there will be a photo, or if you have a photo you are interested in modelling, post and see what the answer is.

 

Since you asked on a modelling forum, I presume you have a model in mind.   If it's a kit scheme, then it's  quite likely a known scheme. 

Just asking what colour  F-5E 's are has got you the correct answer,  which is depends on when built, as to what the scheme is. 

 

I appreciate you are new here,  I'm not trying to lecture, but to suggest ways to get the best out of the forum,  and a vague question can at best get a spread of answers.

 

a "I have the Academy F-5E kit, and there is a overall blue option,  unit ****, serial ******"   may get you, here's the subject,  and it's  synthetic haze, or a best guess is  is synthetic haze.

 

If you have unit and serial detail, try doing an image search.

 

Sometimes you get a very precise answer, sometimes it's a best guess.

 

Finally, you can always edit your thread heading to a more precise question.  

 

HTH

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Most people just don't ever need to realise that aircraft are very complicated machines indeed; ones that saw service in large numbers in different variants over a period of time are even more so, and colour schemes are not the simplest part of the story.  It can be a shock to realise just how complicated can be the answers to what seems to be the simplest query.  That's without the assistance attempted by people who only know part of the answer (if that).  It's a stage we all go through.

 

PS and are still passing through - it's a huge subject.

Edited by Graham Boak
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9 hours ago, BS_w said:

the haze blue finish require a black 44 undercoat at the topside and white 46 at the underside, the graded delimitation between these two shades is  on large  area.

Then haze blue paint was sprayed to obtain 8% reflectance on the black to 45% on the white measured with photometer. The lower insignia receive as much paint as underside.

Me likey that type of data :D

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Morning, All!

 

Here's a bit of clarification on the Haze Paints.  The original Cabot Haze was applied over a  totally black base coat.  The heavier applications of Haze to undersides resulted in a very light blue, while the lighter applications on top gave a much darker blue.  The vertical surfaces in between were graded from light applications down to dark.  Since accurate applications were nearly impossible to measure, there was a great deal of variation the the appearance of these aircraft, and as the slipstream and maintenance crews wore away layers of paint, the entire aircraft began to darken (particularly noticeable on leading edges).  The scheme was also very difficult to to retouch.

 

Two other paint companies provided their own versions of Haze.  Cabot took exception to the violation of his invention, but just as everything came to a legal head, the iridescence problem was discovered - at altitude the finish began to glow.

 

During F-5A production, Lockheed developed a two-color lacquer scheme that became known as Synthetic Haze Paint - a deep blue was applied overall, with a much lighter blue on undersides, in shadow areas, and graded up vertical surfaces.  In the color shots of 267332 above, you can see the countershading on the boom beneath the wing - a clear indication of Synthetic Haze.  Higher resolution copies of that photo also show the more subtle countershading on the vertical surfaces.  (Note that Xtracolor X160 probably needs a second color to make the scheme work - Synthetic Haze certainly wasn't monochromatic.)

 

As with the original Haze Paints, the lighter shade wore away with time - rubbed against by crews or the slipstream.

 

The AAF debated the value of Synthetic Haze, eventually eliminating it from the mod centers that built F-5Cs and Es.  However, the Director of Photography was convinced that the paint helped protect his crews, and it was often applied in the field.  Some units simply used a firm demarcation between the two blues - like a blue version of OD over Neutral Gray.  B&W and color photos can be hard to interpret - especially since many aircraft were instead painted with British paints.  If you can recognize two shades on your F-5E, you've got Synthetic Haze.  If you see only one shade, you're probably looking at one of the British colors.  (A number of decal sheets have been released with incorrectly identified schemes - the decals are still good, but you may want to re-evaluate your base scheme.) 

 

Best of luck with the model!

 

Cheers,

 

 

 

Dana

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According this Lockheed"s drawing(april 42), there was a white undercoat at lower side.

On this drawing, the uncoloured surfaces is black and dark for the white or I'm wrong.

spacer.png

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Hi BS-w,

 

Yes, that's one confusing drawing.  The white is included in the key only for use in the national insignia.

 

The underside base coat was black, with a heavy application of Haze as a finish coat.  The idea was that most of the spectrum would pass through the Haze to be "absorbed" by the black undercoat; the Haze would then reflect in the blue range.  A white undercoat wouldn't have "absorbed" much of the spectrum, which is why black was standardized.

 

When you see F-4s and early F-5s with scrapes through the Haze coat, the undercoat is universally dark.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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There is one chart, white, red, blue for insignia and a second chart showing the reflectance of 4 shades of haze on undercoat,  black to white, graded tone on side surfaces.
I understood it that way..
I think that lower sides no need black undercoat because  these surfaces don't receive direct sun light

spacer.png

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Hi again, BS_w,

 

What you're saying makes sense, but that's not how Haze Paint worked.  I've been collecting on the Haze Paint story since the mid-1970s, and while the undercoat isn't explained well by the drawing, it was very clearly explained in the instructions from the designer, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Lockheed, and Wright Field.  (I recently discovered some US Navy records on the scheme, and the black base coat was noted there too.  The report came with sample strips of Cabot Haze, but the paint had long since worn away.)  Without the black undercoat, the paint just didn't turn blue.  Even when Lockheed began developing Synthetic Haze, they argued that the black base coat would have reflected better had it started as a deep blue.

 

Clearly, when painting a model, you'll have a better effect if you paint the bottom white, but Haze just didn't work the way our model paints work.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Edited by Dana Bell
word left out
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Thank's Dana,
I agree that it's impossible to obtain the same effect on the model, the haze paint was as a polarizing filter over the undercoat which cut some radiations according the light incidence. the render is different depending the light and the watcher position if I understood correctly.

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FWIW, I tried to duplicate Cabot Haze as it was applied at the factory, but using a very dark blue as a overall base coat with various thickness of white applied on the flanks and undersurfaces. This was  an attempt to do a factory fresh A/C and this is what I came up with. 1/48 Hasegawa conversion/ Paragon nose.

Synthetic Haze is in the que for a future build....

BS_w thanks for that paint plan, never saw it before, I would love to see a hi-res version of it!

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

 

 

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Edited by pat d
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Looks almost like the US Navy three coloured, sorry four coloured camouflage in the mid of the war... :)

 

A good looking kit, Pat!

 

Cheers / André

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Thank you, Andre. Yes it does indeed. I stopped at a factory fresh A/C on the Lockheed ramp. Thinking about trying to beat up and weather a Cabot Haze scheme got a real nervous going, I thought I would quit while I was ahead.  😋

 

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