Bf 109 G 6 yellow 14 JG 53 Sicily questions

[Peter Roberts]

Troy recently posted about Spitfires, but also included a reference to the old Airfix Bf 109 G6 kit. This stirred nostalgic memories, and reignited a passion for one of the subjects of that kit - yellow 14, W Nr 15270 from JG 53. I have the decals from the 1/48 Academy kit to use (on a 1/48 scale kit, not the Airfix kit  ), but there in lies some questions that I would appreciate help with please.

 

1. Academy show this plane with saw-tooth upper wing camouflage. Would this be correct? My understanding is that the Werk Number can identify the likely manufacturer which may in turn suggest how the plane was camouflaged - ? Can this be discerned from the Werk Nr 15270? (I am ignorant of such information here)

 

2. Am I safe in assuming 74/75 over 76 as the predominant camouflage colours?

 

3. From the photos I can only discern the theatre markings as yellow lower nose cowl and white rear fuselage band with standard camouflage wing tips, yet one profile suggests white wing tips? (yes, hard to trust a profile) Am I seeing things or is that actually a white wing tip?

 

4. The photos of this plane do not clearly show a Werk Nr on the fin. Is it safe to presume one would be present, and if so, how would it be presented? Entire number? Last three digits?

 

Any help with the above appreciated,

 

Thank you

 

Peter Roberts

 

 

 

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

1 hour ago, Peter Roberts said:

From the photos I can only discern the theatre markings as yellow lower nose cowl and white rear fuselage band

Mediterranean theater markings were white not yellow. This should include the nose ? Yellow was eastern front. Judging by the time frame it could and should be RLM-74/75 over 76. But i have seen some Italian based birds, with green/sand colors. You may want to research other aircraft of the same unit. Yes you might be able to determine the manufacturer from werk#’s. I don't have access to the proper books. Someone like @Graham Boak or @FalkeEinsmight have the answer. 

[Peter Roberts]

Thank you - Google has not been very helpful with further information regards manufacture or W.Nr appearances. Appreciate the reply,

 

PR

[vppelt68]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Mediterranean theater markings were white not yellow. This should include the nose ? Yellow was eastern front. Judging by the time frame it could and should be RLM-74/75 over 76. But i have seen some Italian based birds, with green/sand colors. You may want to research other aircraft of the same unit. Yes you might be able to determine the manufacturer from werk#’s. I don't have access to the proper books. Someone like @Graham Boak or @FalkeEinsmight have the answer. 

You´re partially right, Dennis, the Luftwaffe Med theater colour was white but that order concerned just the fuselage band and the wing tips. There are several JG 27, 53 and 77 Gustavs with yellow lower cowlings. Here´s a link to one of the greatest and most reliable Luftwaffe on-line sources. Scroll down to post from 6 February 2019 to see a pic with 6./JG 53 14 + - . Yellow was the Staffelfarbe of 3., 6. and 9. flights. By summer of ´43 new Messerschmitts delivered to Sicily were in regular fighter camo and not repainted in desert colours. http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/search/label/JG 53 

V-P

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

Troy recently posted about Spitfires, but also included a reference to the old Airfix Bf 109 G6 kit. This stirred nostalgic memories, and reignited a passion for one of the subjects of that kit - yellow 14, W Nr 15270 from JG 53. I have the decals from the 1/48 Academy kit to use (on a 1/48 scale kit, not the Airfix kit  ), but there in lies some questions that I would appreciate help with please.

 

1. Academy show this plane with saw-tooth upper wing camouflage. Would this be correct? My understanding is that the Werk Number can identify the likely manufacturer which may in turn suggest how the plane was camouflaged - ? Can this be discerned from the Werk Nr 15270? (I am ignorant of such information here)

no, the upper wing is visible in the youtube clip, and other images

4 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

2. Am I safe in assuming 74/75 over 76 as the predominant camouflage colours?

yes. see below

4 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

3. From the photos I can only discern the theatre markings as yellow lower nose cowl and white rear fuselage band with standard camouflage wing tips, yet one profile suggests white wing tips? (yes, hard to trust a profile) Am I seeing things or is that actually a white wing tip?

Not sure, a look at various JG53 109s in Italy show some with, some without

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/JG53.html

in the case of Yellow 14, none of the pics shows this detail clearly.

 

4 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

4. The photos of this plane do not clearly show a Werk Nr on the fin. Is it safe to presume one would be present, and if so, how would it be presented? Entire number? Last three digits?

may not be visible at all, and is noted as machine was captured.

If it was visible, it would be just above the horizontal tail on the port side of the fin. 

 

 

for ease of reference

note, I would suggest that at some point it was another number,  and this has been painted out,  compare to mottle under cockpit and on fin

 

other side (still from film?)

note wear to rear of prop blades, and denser paint behind '14' 

not bad for the Spitfires either  

oooh

 

 

 

same plane? think so from the tilt due lack of wheel

 

from https://mab.forumfree.it/?t=73736851

 

I'm pretty sure this another JG 53 in Italy shot, note Pik As badge on locker box on left,  also note the dark patch behind the '1' on plane, and yellow undercowl

 

And this took some finding...., turns out

BF 109 G6, I./JG 53, Yellow 1 Alfred “Martello” Hammer's bird

 

 

note similarity to mottle here

 

same plane, closer up

note that while most of the mottle is 74/75, compare to wings, there are also spots of 02 and 70, look by the lead hanging down from cockpit, and compare engine bearers, 02, and prop blades, 70.

 

Note, there were other JG53 planes captured at Comiso

Me Bf 109 Comiso Italy 1943 JEC 00776 Maker: J Crowder by Jeffrey Ethell Collection, on Flickr

Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 18 068 "Gelbe 7", 6./JG 53, Comiso, July 1943.

 

same plane closer up

Me Bf 109 JEC 00740 by Jeffrey Ethell Collection, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

slapping Bf109G6 trop white 14 JG 53 into google gets this....

 

 

The Bf109 is this BTW

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/03/bf-109-g-6-wnr-15-270-formerly-gelbe-14.html

Quote

Bf 109 G-6 W.Nr. 15 270, formerly "gelbe 14", 6./JG 53, captured at Comiso, Sicily, summer 1943. Sent to RAF Collyweston, 4 February 1944 and flown as VX 101. 

 

cheers

T

[Peter Roberts]

Wow! Thank you gentlemen, appreciate the replies. Interesting FalkeEins link - good find.

 

Troy, thank you so much! That is an amazing amount of reference and information there! Those colour photos are priceless. I envy you your obvious organisation with reference.  

 

I didn't think to check the YouTube vision, will go back and check it. Great lead, thank you. Your screen grab has me a little confused though - the upper wing pattern does look saw tooth at the wing root, but not further out. Maybe just wear and tear at the wing root? Will have to investigate that one a bit more. EDIT - YouTube vision is inconclusive, but the other photos posted above show a saw tooth pattern to the upper wing camouflage. Hmm.

 

My understanding regards the Werk No is that it could be just painted on the left side of the fin. Typically, only images of the right side. Think I'll go with smaller font and full 5 digit no. 

 

The wing tips don't appear all that white - could be dirty - but I'm tending to think not white. EDIT - YouTube vision clearly shows camouflage wing tips - NOT white.

 

Really appreciate your help with this one guys, 

 

PR

Edited May 2, 2019 by Peter Roberts

[Peter Roberts]

I think I have this scheme sorted, thanks to the kind help offered above which is most appreciated, with the exception of the upper wing camouflage pattern.

 

To distill this down a little, was the saw tooth pattern of upper wing camouflage on Bf 109s a 'standard' scheme used by all manufacturers, or a variation only used by certain manufacturers? If only certain manufacturers, which ones, and was this plane built by one of them?

 

PR

[Niknak]

This aircrafts w. Nr 15270 falls in the block 15205 - 16000 build by eria between 03/43 - 08/43. (there were also g-5s among this block.) eria aircraft had saw tooth edged comouflage. In most cases the w. Nr was on the port side above the tail plane. I will check the 3 volume set of books on jg 53 for other information. Nick

Edited May 2, 2019 by Niknak

[Peter Roberts]

Aha! Thank you for posting Nick. That's brilliant! Wonderful information - that clinches it.  

 

Can I ask, is there a source somewhere for that information, or is this from your research over time? (Would be great to have that resource stored somewhere.)

 

Would be interested in other information your sources may reveal,

 

Most appreciated, thank you

 

PR

Edited May 2, 2019 by Peter Roberts

[Troy Smith]

15 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

I think I have this scheme sorted, thanks to the kind help offered above which is most appreciated, with the exception of the upper wing camouflage pattern.

 

To distill this down a little, was the saw tooth pattern of upper wing camouflage on Bf 109s a 'standard' scheme used by all manufacturers, or a variation only used by certain manufacturers? If only certain manufacturers, which ones, and was this plane built by one of them?

 

PR

as Nick just posted,  it's Erla built.

I had memories of some details of this,  see here

http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/2013/10/chosing-correct-wingpattern-for-bf109g-6.html?m=1

 

the plane has the features of Erla production machine,  

Quote

Erla aircraft have the most distinct markings and pattern of them all. On these, the canopy is in 74 but the plate in front of the windscreen is very often in 75 leaving a "gap" of 75 between the 74 on the windscreen and enginecowling. Also very distinct is the spotty mottle, very typical for Erla. The crosses on the undersurfaces of the wings has the thin black outline which neither Mtt Regensburg nor WNF aircraft does. Erla built aircraft carries the sawtoothed camouflage pattern.

 

 

the main features above  are all here, which is neat, and I wasn't aware of, so it's been a worthwhile exercise digging around for these pics.

 

 

 

 

[Niknak]

39 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

Aha! Thank you for posting Nick. That's brilliant! Wonderful information - that clinches it.  

 

Can I ask, is there a source somewhere for that information, or is this from your research over time? (Would be great to have that resource stored somewhere.)

 

Would be interested in other information your sources may reveal,

 

Most appreciated, thank you

 

PR

The information is from mainly the following books messerschmitt bf 109 f, g, & k by jochen prien & Peter rodeike.(has w.nr.blocks,factories that build them and when. Recognition manual has only w nr.blocks) Messerschmitt bf 109 recognition manual. By Marco fernandez-sommerau. Nick

Edited May 2, 2019 by Niknak

[Peter Roberts]

Troy, you have ESP! I was just about to search for this scheme and there it is! 

 

Yes, your original posts and added info have been VERY worthwhile I think - thank you

 

PR

Thanks Nick - I'll see if I can track down some copies.

 

PR

[tempestfan]

The Prien/Rodeike book is still current with Schiffer I think and could be bought for under 30 € up to last year, new. I know as I did 😉

[stevehnz]

Thanks all for a brilliant thread, especially  @Peter Roberts for starting it. On the basis of the photo of Gelb 14 at Comiso, posted in a Spitfire colour thread, I equipped myself with some Airfix decals from eBay, arrived today & a Hobby Boss 1/72 bf109G-6 kit to do this aircraft. I spent a fair bit of time yesterday arvo chasing down any on line refs for it & although successful to a degree, this thread has reveled a stack of info I didn't come up with, so once again, thanks all, especially @Troy Smith & @Niknak for your assistance.

Steve.

Edited May 3, 2019 by stevehnz

[Niknak]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

Thanks all for a brilliant thread, especially  @Peter Roberts for starting it. On the basis of the photo of Gelb 14 at Comiso, posted in a Spitfire colour thread, I equipped myself with some Airfix decals from eBay, arrived today & a Hobby Boss 1/72 bf109G-6 kit to do this aircraft. I spent a fair bit of time yesterday arvo chasing down any on line refs for it & although successful to a degree, this thread has reveled a stack of info I didn't come up with, so once again, thanks all, especially @Troy Smith & @Niknak for your assistance.

Steve.

You are welcome Steve, the 2nd vol of jadgeschwader 53 history of the "pik as" covers may 43 to Jan 44 by jochen prien. These books are a good ref. Nick

[tempestfan]

7 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Thanks all for a brilliant thread, especially  @Peter Roberts for starting it. On the basis of the photo of Gelb 14 at Comiso, posted in a Spitfire colour thread, I equipped myself with some Airfix decals from eBay, arrived today & a Hobby Boss 1/72 bf109G-6 kit to do this aircraft. I spent a fair bit of time yesterday arvo chasing down any on line refs for it & although successful to a degree, this thread has reveled a stack of info I didn't come up with, so once again, thanks all, especially @Troy Smith & @Niknak for your assistance.

Steve.

Watch out that the legacy Airfix decals miss out on the black edging to the 14 and bar.

[stevehnz]

That may be a sacrifice I have to make.

Steve.

Edited May 4, 2019 by stevehnz

[Peter Roberts]

Good luck with the build Steve - maybe apply the "14" and "-" to black decal first, then carefully trim (?) -  but may be difficult to get consistent edging.

 

PR

[Niknak]

5 hours ago, stevehnz said:

That may be a sacrifice & have to make.

Steve.

Xtradecal do different coloured strips. Each sheet has different sizes on them. I have used them for outlines on. 1/72 bomber codes and 1/48 fighter numbers. Nick

Edited May 3, 2019 by Niknak

[Graham Boak]

Try a black Rotring pen (other manufacturers are available) and a straight edge.  14 is all straight lines to make it easy.

[stevehnz]

All worthy suggestions that I'll keep in mind nearer the time if I can't find some outlined alternatives. They are a thin outline & not obvious in the initial photo, I wonder if its going to be difficult to replicate without being too much of a good thing.

Steve.