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Hawker Hunter Flaps Question


Brad-M

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Hello Gang,

 

Is there a hard and fast rule for the position of the flaps of the Hunter Mk. 6 while on the tarmac and shut down? Up, or down? If down, are they fully down?

 

TIA

 

Brad

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I am not an expert but from what I've read over the years, RAF ones would have had the flaps up when parked.   The airbrakes would also be  up but some seem to have had a small hydraulic leak there and occasionally you see the airbrake partially open.  I am sure true experts will give you a definite answer.

 

David

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1 hour ago, David Womby said:

I am not an expert but from what I've read over the years, RAF ones would have had the flaps up when parked.   The airbrakes would also be  up but some seem to have had a small hydraulic leak there and occasionally you see the airbrake partially open.  I am sure true experts will give you a definite answer.

 

David

David is fundamentally correct.  Because the flaps operated on independent systems and in order to prevent asymmetric lowering of the flaps to any position, an "equalising valve" was installed between the systems which ensured that the flaps lowered/raised equally. this valve also prevented as far as possible, any "creep" in either side so yes, flaps were normally in the up position when parked.

 

As regards the airbrake.  Dependent on the leakage rate past the seals in the hydraulic jack, the airbrake could be seen either fully closed or partially open. As I recall, and it was a long time ago now, if the airbrake drooped half way during a turnaround inspection, then the jack was DD'd (Deferred Defect) usually until cease flying that day.  Most underslung airbrakes, either on the fuselage or mainplane mounted, had that problem. 

 

Dennis

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28 minutes ago, Uncle Uncool said:

So then the flaps would be down on the ground only while the aircraft were being taken to the runway to take off, or back from landing?  

No , they wouldn't taxy with the flaps down . They would be lowered before brakes-off on the runway prior to take off and raised at the end of the landing roll  

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23 hours ago, rs2man said:

No , they wouldn't taxy with the flaps down . They would be lowered before brakes-off on the runway prior to take off and raised at the end of the landing roll  

:blink2: Oh? Thanks, rs2mate.

What about having the flaps (and airbrake) down while going through some maintenance? Need to have my T.7 conversion with "they're" flaps down.  

Yeh, me does.

Cheers,

 

Unc2

 

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According to the Pilot's Notes Hunter F. Mk. 6, the flaps are lowered during landing only. The flaps are raised before taxing as the Pilot's Notes instruct the flaps should be up after landing. For take off, normally the flaps are not used, but to be set at 38 degrees down when external stores are carried.

The flaps are still in up position after the engine is shut down, but they can be lowered by means of pressure from the air bottle when the hydraulic pressure is not available.

 

Cheers,

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

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The footages in the following IWM video of the RAF Black Arrows after it was stood down as an aerobatic team is most useful for modellers.

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/1921

 

Of interest to this thread is the sequence that shows a pair of Hunters equipped with 100-gallon tanks scrambling for an intercept mission.

The status of the flaps can be seen in the video at time 8.59 (at end of runway checks) and 9.33 (during take-off).

 

Interesting to also note the colour of the droptanks on the black Hunters.

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As has been said, a 'healthy' Hunter that's just been shutdown would have flaps and airbrake fully retracted. There is an interlock which prevents the airbrake being lowered when the undercarriage is down (in fact the brake will automatically close if the wheels are lowered with the airbrake out) so only loss of hydraulic pressure will cause it to droop on the ground. There is a test switch in the cockpit but that only partially opens the brake then snaps it shut again after a couple of seconds. To fully open the airbrake on the ground for servicing it was necessary to disconnect the jack. The test switch also came in handy for toilet roll bombing operations - operate the test switch, while the brake is partially open jam your toilets rolls in, take off, fly over neighbouring squadron's airfield, open airbrake to drop your 'bombs'!!!

 

That's a fantastic video posted by YK GOH. Note that the Black Arrows (and the other Hunter aero teams for that matter) flew displays with one notch of flap on. That allowed a higher engine power setting to be used making it more responsive while flying the display.

Edited by StephenMG
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Hunter take off,

 

43781728672_6a28160a0b_b.jpgHawker Hunter F.6 XF515 G-KAXF by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

Landing,

 

14727796652_be368ef076_b.jpgHunter T.7 XL577 G-XMHD 23 July 14 by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

not always the case, but Hunters can be seen taxying with flap at take off position, never seen one taxying with landing flap though

 

14686460362_394f83002e_b.jpgHunter WT723 692 LM 18 July 14 by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

9320131917_acb74eac7a_b.jpgHunter T.7 XL573 / G-BVGH 19 July 13 by James Thomas, on Flickr

 

As said above, not seen live Hunters park with flaps down, I don't think the mech allows them to droop, unlike the airbrake

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Wow!

It turns out, all these different Hunter models:

http://scalemodels.ru/articles/12884-Revell-1-32-Hawker-Hunter-FGA-9-Mk58.html

http://scalemodels.ru/articles/9263-Revell-1-72-Hunter-FGA-9-.html

with open flaps but without a pilot in the cockpit it's wrong!

 

Thank you gentlemen!  

 

This topic has saved me from a similar error in the future and wasting time on assembling photoetched flap from Eduard and the Part for my Hunter FGA.9 & P.1109B.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

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It’s not “wrong” per se to have the flaps down on a Hunter with nobody in the cockpit but quite unusual.  One probable cause would be if the flaps had been selected down as part of a maintenance or rectification task: however the techie concerned would then have left an obvious clue in the cockpit or alongside the aircraft (or both) that he/she didn’t want anyone playing with the flap selector.

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12 minutes ago, stever219 said:

It’s not “wrong” per se to have the flaps down on a Hunter with nobody in the cockpit but quite unusual.  One probable cause would be if the flaps had been selected down as part of a maintenance or rectification task: however the techie concerned would then have left an obvious clue in the cockpit or alongside the aircraft (or both) that he/she didn’t want anyone playing with the flap selector.

But if flaps was opened for maintenance or rectification task then will be opened some kind of hatch where are the control mechanisms flaps or balloons, etc.?

No?

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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35 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

But if flaps was opened for maintenance or rectification task then will be opened some kind of hatch where are the control mechanisms flaps or balloons, etc.?

No?

 

B.R.

Serge

 

Quite possibly, so suddenly your nice simple Hunter model is becoming a vignette or mini-diorama.  Just select flaps up, bung some chocks under the wheels and walk away whistling happily and knowing that the lineys are going to have to tow the jet to the hangar to get the snag cleared.🥴

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Great thread and super find with the film. 

 

Just to throw the proverbial spanner in the works can I pose a mildly philosophical question?  I can see it’s important to “get it right” when doing a diorama but if it’s just a stand alone model why might it be wrong to model the flaps and workings in an open position albeit the real aircraft would be parked closed up?  After all we leave canopies open to better view detailed cockpits and even sometimes do cutaway models to show internal details. 

 

I think you should do it to display the model as you like particularly to show off modelling skills.  That’s why my detailed complex etched flaps are still in the box and the finished aircraft closed up - but I say it’s for realism :wicked:

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21 minutes ago, stever219 said:

nice simple Hunter model is becoming a vignette or mini-diorama

Thank you, but I am against the approaches of the pathologist in modeling!

😁😁😁

 All these open hatches, detached units and mechanisms look spectacularly as a demonstration of the modeller  capabilities , but they completely deprive the model itself as an object of technical aesthetics of swiftness, elegance and beauty!

Of course, if this beauty and technical aesthetics were originally present to some extent on the plane!

 Because looking for beauty or technical aesthetics in the La-200B or F-89, for example, can be very long, but never found! 😁

Therefore, I do not want to spoil the rather beautiful and elegant Hunter with open flaps, air brake or canopy if this is not historical

necessary!

 

B.R.

Serge

Edited by Aardvark
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Serge we could now start a long debate on which is the most beautiful and elegant Hunter but that could degenerate into an unseemly disagreement along the lines of “does (insert name of rock/pop/film/tv god/ess look better as a blond/brunette/redhead?”  Please note that other argument topics are available.🤪🤣🙄😖.

 

For me the flowing dorsal line of the two seaters makes me think of some marine mammals, the elongated noses of the P.1109 accentuate the slim fuselage and the straight wing leading edges of the early marks speak of simple design and speed.  Maybe the ugliest sisters are those that had the Royal Navy’s Harley lights stuck in their truncated noses but that’s a punch-up for another day.

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