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SKY ANA 610 and FAA Corairs


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Studying photos, it just seems that this American paint for undersides must be different in some way, in that it's not an exact match for proper British Sky Type S.  Am assuming these b/w period photos illustrate underside roundels painted over to adjust for smaller dimensions.   Though not huge, there is a noticeable difference between the undersides and this added paint:

 

02nsxmb.jpg

 

8QjZyG2.jpg

 

Then there is some colour photos that indicate a blue hue to undersides of Corsairs, so I've taken one and studied it closer.  Mind you, this all could mean nothing as there are a number of variables, film type and degradation of photo over time, plus colours I will be comparing to are fs values that are only close approximates.

 

TMfN4AO.jpg

The swatches posted above are basically a shifting of colours in the above  photo, but instead of doing it overall, have just dealt with specific areas using the eye dropper tool and working in RGB colour values.  A sample of the Roundel Red in the above photo is compared with a quoted fs value from Paul Lucas.  A subtraction value  (36,32,50) was arrived by calculating the difference between two.  Red numbers are the RGB values of the roundel in the photo, while the bold numbers are Roundel Red fs 30109 expressed in RGB:

157 - 36 = 121
90  - 32  = 58
99 - 50   = 49

 

The same subtraction is then done to the underside color, with the final set of numbers (to the right of the equal sign) representing the adjusted underside colour:

219 - 36 = 183          
234  - 32  = 202        
237 - 50  = 187   

 

Thing is now, if the same is done to the Roundel Blue shade, it does not end up matching  it's quoted fs match (see above swatches  above).

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

3fY0cOh.jpg

 

I did a few more tests, seeing how the undersides would change, firstly by using a subtraction value based on correcting the Roundel Blue shade, (resulting in stronger hue of blue for the undersides).   A third subtraction was calculated based on a combined average of the first two studies, that ended up being a slight variation of the first result.

 

Does this mean anything, maybe and maybe not, but for whatever reason, was not able to arrive at anything close to Sky Type S.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

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I've yet to try that with a photograph of that vintage and not arrive at wild results unfortunately. Even when I am 100% certain of the paint I'm seeing I've so far been incapable of finding a digital sample that compares well to the real colour. It's not even possible to trend the differences. Lighting, camera settings, any optical filters used by the kind of photographer that would have had access to colour film, film type etc etc all conspire to render photographs indicative only. They can only be interpretted, not analysed.

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Thanks Jamie, I know what you mean - tried the corrections based on roundel values from American paints, and ended up with salamander pink undersides.

 

Any idea what is going on with the b/w photo of the aircraft parked on the elevator  -  both upper and lower wing surfaces, plus the fuselage, look to be all one same shade (though  canopy frame looks darker )- maybe photographed with a filter, or developed from a negative of just one primary colour?

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
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1 hour ago, JackG said:

Studying photos, it just seems that this American paint for undersides must be different in some way, in that it's not an exact match for proper British Sky Type S.  Am assuming these b/w period photos illustrate underside roundels painted over to adjust for smaller dimensions.   Though not huge, there is a noticeable difference between the undersides and this added paint:

bear in mind that the same  colours can appear different when applied to a used airframe, note top left image 

Hawker%20Tornado,%20Typhoon%20&%20Tempes

 

 

FWIW, I just took the RAF Museum paint chips, and the Monogram Official US Navy & Marine Corps Color 1940-49 outside,  slightly over cast and fading light, the ANA 610 chip was darker and greyer than the RAF Sky chip

 

if that a decent match (on a good monitor I can score 0 on the X-rite colour test) then MAP Sky should appear lighter than ANA 610 Sky

 

I think @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies has both of these, so he maybe able to add some more precise calibrations to this.

 

HTH

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If you overpaint an area with fresh paint, then it is going to look different to the surrounding area in the same colour but with older paint.  That's what I see in the photos in the initial posting.  It will be interesting to find out any difference between MAP Sky and ANA Sky, but I don't think you should start by looking at such photos and assuming there has to be any.

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Hi folks, I do indeed have both of the aforementioned chips and will happily compare but am away for the Scottish National Scale Model Show at Perth right now so can't do it until I get back (and if I don't get it done by Monday it'll have to wait until the end of next week as I'm in Stavanger again next week).

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Troy thanks, that could explain the difference seen in the b/w.

 

Also thank you Graham, your explanation is a possibility as well.  I'm guessing that newer paint would have a smoother finish, and therefore reflect more light?

 

regards,

Jack

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35 minutes ago, Rolls-Royce said:

Add in differing manufacturers, bill of materials changes over time, and batch-to-batch variance even from the same manufacturer, and it's a wonder we see matches at all...

True enough, but it's still interesting to know what the original colour shade was intended to be.

 

regards,

Jack

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Just a small aside here, but it refers to colour.

 

A number of years ago, the missus painted the living room wall a yellow colour. About six years later, after a furniture re-arrangement, there was some slight damage where the couch had rubbed on the wall. She still had some of the original paint downstairs, so she took the can to the paint store and had them put it in their shaker for a good shake. After application to the affected area and a day to dry properly, the new painted area was noticeable. It dried slightly lighter than the surrounding area.

 

So to see a different shade on an active warplane, after a small touch-up with a different paint from a different manufacturer, is not surprising at all.

 

 

Chris

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One thing worth pointing out is the both BW examples posted are not Corsairs but Hellcats. It is generally accepted that Grumman used good matches for MAP colours in their production, whereas Vought and Eastern used ANA agreed matches. WRT to the Hellcats I think whilst there would be some expected colour difference as batches and paint production not to mention surface could change even with good matches, some of the tonal change could indeed be due fresh paint over older colours as Graham has said (and darker underneath colour from modified European roundels). 

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Note also that the Hellcat on the elevator in post 1 has overpainted upper roundels as well, with a clearly defined darker patch where the large old roundel has been overpainted outside the new small roundel.

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Yes my apologies, my file folder on FFA photos isn't separated into individual aircraft types, and I choose the two Hellcat examples as they appeared to be the best quality.

 

The only decent example I have of the Corsair:

 

MkDv6uk.png

 

Can kind  of sort of see the original underside roundel on the nearest aircraft, but very clear on the third one down.  It seems the immediate area around the spent cartridge chutes were also touched up?

 

The other examples are just video screen grabs:

 

zsy16Uu.png

 

sj8dncF.png

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Edited by JackG
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