Etendard IVM weapons

[ReccePhreak]

My friend and I are both working on the Kitty Hawk 1/48 Etendard IVM/IVP.

Obviously, I am doing the Etendard IVP recce version, while my friend is doing the Etendard IVM version.

We are trying to find out what underwing stores the Etendard IVM used/carried. The kits have a BUNCH of interesting underwing stores, many of which weren't even around when the Etendard IVM was in service. The only pics I have been able to find online of it carrying underwing stores, are the centerline refueling pod, rocket pods on the outboard pylons and of course the fuel tanks on the inboard pylons.

Does anybody have any info on what other weapons they might have carried/used? Photos would be cool, especially if we could make out the markings.

Of course, we're still trying to figure out what colors the planes were actually painted, and corresponding modeling paints to use.

 

On a final note, the kit is over-engineered, and has many fit issues. The "instructions" are pretty lame, and it's obvious that Kitty Hawk hasn't mastered slide-mold technology yet. 

 

Larry

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by ReccePhreak

[Finn]

Larry check here:

 

http://www.ffaa.net/aircraft/etendard/etendard UPG.htm

 

mention is made of doing some shots with AIM-9Bs, and there is one photo with rocket pods. 

 

Jari

[ReccePhreak]

Jari, thanks for that link.

Since I doubt the Sidewinder was a common fit, I think we will just go with the rocket pods under the outer pylons.

 

Larry

[Finn]

Larry here are some other pics:

 

https://www.escadrilles.org/histoire-et-histoires/pirate-dans-les-balkans/

 

Jari

[Hook]

The Barracuda ECM pod and Phimat chaff dispenser were fairly common. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[ReccePhreak]

8 hours ago, Finn said:

Larry here are some other pics:

 

https://www.escadrilles.org/histoire-et-histoires/pirate-dans-les-balkans/

 

Jari

Jari,

 

Thanks for that link to some really cool photos. Unfortunately for my friend, they are all of Etendard IP & IVPM aircraft, not the IVM, which is what he is building.

They are really useful for me though.

Now if I can just figure out what the colors are for the camo paint scheme. Kitty Hawk's "instructions" are not very helpful, as usual for them. 

 

Larry 

4 hours ago, Hook said:

The Barracuda ECM pod and Phimat chaff dispenser were fairly common. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Unfortunately, I have not found any photos of the Etendard IVM carrying the Barracuda or Phimat.

 

Regards,

Larry

[Des]

Looking at a print reference dated 1964 the following are mentioned -

 

Nord AS20 ASM on inboard pylons.

 

1000 lb. Bombs on inboard pylons and 500 lb. bombs on outboard pylons.

 

AIM-9 Sidewinder but not specified whether inboard or outboard

 

No mention at that point in time of rocket pods.

[Antoine]

9 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

Unfortunately, I have not found any photos of the Etendard IVM carrying the Barracuda or Phimat.

For sure, as the IVM was no longer in service when they were first delivered to the Aéronavale

Edited April 27, 2019 by Antoine

[Antoine]

I've got the big Bible in two volume for the Etendard, and with this I'll be able to answer all of your questions (hopefully).

 

But.

 

Do you want to read about ALL the weapons cleared for use with both aircrafts? That will be a huge list.

 

Or do you want to know about those found in the kit's boxes? If so, I'll try to find a picture of the sprues.

 

Maybe you're interested by the aftermarket option?

 

Please tell me, so that we can reduce the scope of our search.

 

About the AIM-9, it's still an option to me, it's just that the aircraft never used it in combat.

[ReccePhreak]

Antoine, thanks for the confirmation that the Etendard IVM did NOT carry the Barracuda or Phimat pods.

As far as weapons are concerned, we are mainly interested in what is available in the kit box. (No aftermarket)

According to Cybermodeler's first look at the kit, it has the following weapons in the box:

 

2 x Magic 2 AAM

1 x Barracuda ECM pod

1 x Phimat chaff dispenser pod

2 x 68mm rocket pods

2 x AS.30

4 x 250kg bombs

2 x BL755

2 x twin ejector racks

2 x external fuel tanks (Note by me, these tanks are incorrect for the Etendard IV)

(There are a BUNCH more weapons in the kit, but they are not shown on the instruction sheet as being used)

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/kh/kit_kh_80137.shtml

 

I think we are pretty much set on using modified/corrected fuel tanks from the kit on the middle pylons, and a 68mm rocket pod on each outboard pylon.

It would be nice to have something on the inboard pylons, as long as it was used operationally.

The only store for the centerline pylon is the Douglas Refueling Pod. I don't know if an armed jet would be carrying one of those into combat, unless it was also carrying some AAMs.

 

Regards,

Larry

Edited April 28, 2019 by ReccePhreak

[Finn]

Here is one with a larger type rocket (100mm?) pod:

 

 

Jari

[Antoine]

So, everything seems to be already set?

A few points, if you don't mind.

5 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

I think we are pretty much set on using modified/corrected fuel tanks from the kit on the middle pylons, and a 68mm rocket pod on each outboard pylon.

It would be nice to have something on the inboard pylons, as long as it was used operationally.

There's no such thing as a middle pylon, as each wing has only two points. I'll try to find and check the instructions, as I suspect a mix-up from KH

with the Super Etendard.

 

- Inboard, to be set either with an Alkan 504 for heavy load (fuel tank), or Alkan 257 for lighter load (bombs up to 250kg/500lb)

- Outboard use Alkan 257 only.

 

For your choice, neither fuel tank nor LR Matra 150 for 18 SNEB 68mm rocket need an adapter to fit under the Alkans

 

6 hours ago, ReccePhreak said:

The only store for the centerline pylon is the Douglas Refueling Pod. I don't know if an armed jet would be carrying one of those into combat, unless it was also carrying some AAMs.

As you know, the refueling pod is a Douglas D-827-A, replaced in the early 80's by a Intertechnique D-827-B (under licence).

Honnestly, I don't know the difference...

All the IVP (and PM) can play tanker, but for the IVM, you start from n°51, plus n°5 as it was used for trials.

Also, there's a need to have the IVM fitted with the "chassis engin" to carry the Douglas pod. "Chassis engin" is used with A/G missiles and contain all the wiring and switchology needed for AS20/30. In this case, and so for aerial refueling, the aircraft carry no guns, as they come with the "chassis canon", which is more common, and used for A/G work with bombs and rockets.

Beside, the IV is a bit short-legged, so there's no room for AAM or bombs or rockets when the pod is present. Fuel tanks and that's all.

 

On 4/27/2019 at 4:49 AM, ReccePhreak said:

Since I doubt the Sidewinder was a common fit

 

11 hours ago, Des said:

AIM-9 Sidewinder but not specified whether inboard or outboard

Sidewinder WAS a common fit. Outboard pylon only, Alkan 257 with an Aero adapter.

[Antoine]

As for the paint...

 

Better check the camouflage section, down this link.

 

Quote

-Revêtement Supérieur : 
Gris bleu foncé brillant (Cellolac 4980) => some kind of EDSG
-Revêtement Inférieur : 
Blanc brillant (Cellolac 4080) => Gloss white

 

[Hook]

10 hours ago, Antoine said:

For sure, as the IVM was no longer in service when they were first delivered to the Aéronavale

 

my mistake - must've gotten the IVM and Super mixed up. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre 

[ReccePhreak]

5 hours ago, Antoine said:

So, everything seems to be already set?

A few points, if you don't mind.

There's no such thing as a middle pylon, as each wing has only two points. I'll try to find and check the instructions, as I suspect a mix-up from KH

with the Super Etendard.

 

- Inboard, to be set either with an Alkan 504 for heavy load (fuel tank), or Alkan 257 for lighter load (bombs up to 250kg/500lb)

- Outboard use Alkan 257 only.

 

For your choice, neither fuel tank nor LR Matra 150 for 18 SNEB 68mm rocket need an adapter to fit under the Alkans

 

Sidewinder WAS a common fit. Outboard pylon only, Alkan 257 with an Aero adapter.

 

4 hours ago, Antoine said:

As for the paint...

 

Better check the camouflage section, down this link.

 

 

Antoine, thanks for the very informative replies.

I am not surprised that Kitty Hawk "mixed up" the Etendard with the Super Etendard in their instructions. They definitely show three pylons under each wing on both the IVP and the IVM. Good thing I have only drilled the holes and have not glued the pylons on yet. It'll be easy to fill the holes. So I think my friend will just go with the 18 SNEB 68mm rocket on the outboard pylons and the fuel tanks on the inboard pylons. Of course, we will have to correct the fuel tanks that Kitty Hawk includes in the kit as the fins are totally wrong. They are slanted down and do not have the end plates. I will bring in my Airfix Etendard IVP kit to use as reference.

Thanks also for the info on the paint colors. I am sure we can find a match for EDSG with the Mr Color line that my friend uses. I still use Model Master enamels, so will have to find a match for the 2-color upper camo with them.

 

Cheers,

Larry

[Antoine]

Hi Larry,

I've heard that there's also a lenght issue with the tanks.

Can check if you like.

About the paint, if you did check the link, you've seen that the Etendard did get at least two schemes in its early life, the one with EDSG being the first. So make your choice.

 

This one is also cool.

And as Sikkens is still in existence, you can even contact them about 59278, they might send you a sample!

Quote

-Revêtement Supérieur :
Gris bleu clair brillant (Sikkens/ Astral 59278) 
-Revêtement Inférieur : 
Blanc brillant

 

As usual with French paints, it's difficult to find the equivalent FS, and each modeller over here will make his own kitchen.

You just have to do the same!

[ReccePhreak]

Hi Antoine,

 

My Kitty Hawk kit is at my friend's house, which is where we are working on them together. I plan to bring my Airfix Etendard IVP kit there tomorrow, to compare fuel tanks.

Do you have the actual dimensions of the tanks?

Just looking at the Airfix tanks, they seem smaller in both diameter & length than the Kitty Hawk tanks, but they do have the correct fins.

 

I think I have the paint covered, because I was able to order some discontinued Testors Model Master French Light Blue Grey (# 2109) and some discontinued Testors Model Master French Dark Blue Grey (# 2105) off of ebay. I bought two bottles of each, just in case. I also plan to order some discontinued Testors Model Master Dark Gray (# 2036), as it is supposed to be close to one of the Super Etendard colors. That should give me enough paint to test mixtures with, in order to get just the right color (In my eyes, that is).

 

Cheers,

Larry

[ReccePhreak]

On 4/28/2019 at 1:20 PM, Antoine said:

Hi Larry,

I've heard that there's also a length issue with the tanks.

Can check if you like.

 

Hi Antoine,

 

I just checked the dimensions of the KH Etendard IVP/IVM tanks, as well as the Airfix Etendard IVP tanks.

 

KH

Length - 4.276" = 205.248" long

Diameter - .533" = 25.584" 

 

Airfix 

Length - 3.246" w/o fins = 155.808" long

Diameter - .410" = 19.68"

 

How do those numbers compare with your listed figures?

 

Cheers,

Larry

[beppe]

I guess the tanks in the KH kit are the 1100 liters (with slanted fin)  instead ot the 625 l commonly seen on étendard IM et IV P 

Airfix and Heller étendard have two 625 L, the super étendard has one 1100 L.

 

loads of reference to be found in www.ffaa.net 

Edited May 2, 2019 by beppe

[ReccePhreak]

That's what I figured, concerning the fuel tanks. I am not going to raid my Airfix Etendard IVP, because then I wouldn't have fuel tanks for it when I build it.

[beppe]

not sure, but I think eduard or hobbyboss mirage IIIc has 625 l tanks.

[ReccePhreak]

8 hours ago, beppe said:

not sure, but I think eduard or hobbyboss mirage IIIc has 625 l tanks.

You are right about the Eduard 1/48 Mirage IIIC & IIICJ kits, as the have both the finned 625 Liter tanks, as well as the unfinned 500 Liter tanks.

All I have to do is find a scheme that used the 500 Liter tanks and I can "reallocate" the 625 Liter tanks.

I can't say whether the Hobby Booboo Mirage IIIC has those tanks, as I try to avoid their inaccurate kits, if at all possible. 

 

Larry 

[beppe]

Well, for the 500 L configuration, the sky's the limit.