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Spitfires over Holland May 13th 1940


Luka

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After some lurking on this forum I decided te become a member, and I hope a fellow forumite can help out a newbie with yet anOther questin about Spitfires.

As the title says, there was a flight of Spitfire Mk1a's sent to Holland on May 13th 1940 (A-flight of six Spitfires belonging to 66 Squadron, together with B-flight of six Defiants belonging to 264 Squadron). Until recently, I did not know RAF fighters were involved in the air war over Holland in 1940, so I got really interested in building one of these planes.

I am specifically looking for a combination of serial and individual squadron code letter of the planes involved. I already know the squadron code is LZ.
I managed to find the names of the pilots involved;
- F/Lt K. Mc Leod Gillies
- F/O W. Smith
- P/O C. Cook
- F/O G. Brown
- Sgt M. Cameron
- P/O P. King

I also found out that Brown scored a probable kill (in the first ever Bf 109 vs. Spitfire dogfight), and was supposedly flying N3027 at that time. I do not know the ID letter of that particular plane though. Awkwardly, this plane was reported missing on 13-5-1940 (according to airhistory.org.uk), yet another source states that the entire A-flight returned from the mission.
That was all the info I could find about the planes involved in that mission.

Can anybody help me with gathering more info on any of these particular Spitfires?

Thanks in advance,

Luka

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You can look through the entries here for that date, zeroing on the particular pilots you have listed.   Clicking the Preview an image of this record allows you to view scans of the squadron diary entries, just hope the watermark doesn't obstruct anything important.

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q= 13-MAY-1940

 

regards,

Jack

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N3027 flown by F/O Brown was badly damaged in combat with 109s of 5/JG26. Brown flew the aircraft to Aalter at 0600 and upon landing a tyre burst and the Spitfire overturned, completely wrecking it. Brown was exceedingly lucky and was unhurt. This was the only serious damage that 66 suffered on this sortie. As you no doubt know 264 were not so lucky and suffered a severe mauling.

 

Unfortunately I have no aircraft codes for the 66 Sqn Spitfires for this but I have some codes for the Defiants should you wish to base a build on one of them.

 

Not what you were after but I hope it helps in a small way.

 

Tim

Edited by Smithy
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The Appendices to 66 Squadron's Operations Record Books include combat reports for the 12th and 13th May. They don't give any information about the aircraft codes but they are very detailed as to the description and location of the action. The ORBs don't give any aircraft letters but they list these Spitfires/Pilots:   N3225 Gillies,  N3035 Smith,  N3033 Cooke,  N3027 Brown,  N3029 Cameron,  N3032 King.

 

The Appendices can be found at the National Archives here:  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2503238

 

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Thanks for the answers all!


And I may have just got a bit closer; N3035 was likely coded LZ*K, possibly LZ*X. Those connections between pilots and serials really helped. Thanks @Ivor Ramsden!

 

Most online images however are artist's profiles, and we all know how infallibly reliable those are. Anyways; those profiles often show that the id-letter K (or X) is partially obscured by the fuselage roundel, and in some cases the serial is depicted in what looks like medium sea grey instead of black. Those are quite non-standard features to just idly throw around. Sometimes I would love to see the source material those artists use.
But I also wonder if profile artists similarly groan when they see scale modelers mess things up..
 

So my next question is; does anyone know of photographs of LZ*K or LZ*X? I know the timeframe is very specific and the chances may be slim, but maybe there's that single forgotten picture somewhere..

@SmithyFor the Defiant I already decided to build L6977 - PS*U; basically the Airfix kit with a different serial and some tweaked markings :-)

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23 minutes ago, Luka said:

So my next question is; does anyone know of photographs of LZ*K or LZ*X? I know the timeframe is very specific and the chances may be slim, but maybe there's that single forgotten picture somewhere..

 

I have a photo of N3035 showing the port side. The aircraft does have the individual code letter partly obscured by the roundel. The serial is visible and is in the "Supermarine style" and in a light colour, most probably grey. I'll scan the photo and post it here later when I have time.

 

Tim

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From the report issued by Headquarters, No 1 Group, Intelligence.

"F/Lt Gillies - Red 1; F/O Smith Red 2; P/O Crooks Red 3. P/O Brown Yellow 1; Sgt Cameron Yellow 2; P/O King Yellow 3. 

 

P/O Brown force landed at Le Zoute and is returning from Dunkirk to England by boat today or tomorrow. P/O King - Yellow 3 in attempting to return to this country  got lost, mistook Calais for Margate and landed there. He returned in his own aircraft the same evening.

 

Red 1 fired 2663 rounds, Red 2 2500, Red 3 2667 and Yellow 2 1006.  Both Red 2 and Yellow 3 suffered one bullet strike apiece. Cine guns were fitted but not used.

The composite squadron spotted a formation of seven Ju 87's in line astern and engaged. One Ju 87 fired red parachute flares which was a signal for fighter assistance which appeared in the form of 30 Me 109's which attacked our fighters. The engagement developed into a series of individual combats.

 

Red 1 engaged a Ju 87 from which tracer was observed from twin rear guns. This tracer ceased after some seconds fire after which the enemy went into a steep dive with smoke coming from it, and disappeared down to the ground. Our a/c next engaged a Me 109 and as the Spitfire ran out of ammunition the enemy went into a dive. The result was not reserved.

 

Red 2 attacked a Ju 87 and observed tracer going into the enemy aircraft between the rear turret and the pilot. The enemy went down in a dive. Red 2 broke off his attack and attacked three other Ju 87's. He then sighted a Ju 88 which he attacked, the enemy turning steeply, only receiving two short deflection bursts. The top rear gunner of the Ju 88 was firing two guns with tracer.

 

Red 3 engaged three Ju 87's, one of which was seen to crash in flames, and a second was last seen to crash in flames, and a second was last seen in a shallow dive with petrol vapour streaming behind.

Report on Yellow 1 is not yet to hand, but P/O Kay confirms that he saw P/O Brown bring down a Ju 87 in flames.

 

Yellow 2 engaged a Ju 87 at 1,000 feet, attacking from astern and after his fourth burst of fire the enemy aircraft crashed. He then attacked two more Ju 87's, firing short bursts, but no result was observed. Our aircraft received fire from twin guns using tracer from the top turret of the enemy aircraft.

 

Yellow 3 got in a short burst on a Ju 87 with no apparent effect. He then developed deflection attack, still with no effect. Then he noticed his reflector sight was inclined to the left . He made one more burst before his ammunition was expended. He received no return fire from the enemy rear gunner who had fired during the first attack. From this he assumed the rear gunner had been out of action. He then followed the E/A inland and made repeated dives on it hoping to make it crash. He drove the enemy down to approximately 20 feet from the ground. At this time, having received Red 1's call to rendezvous over Rotterdam, he left the enemy aircraft and started looking for Rotterdam.

Enemy casualties: 5 Ju 87's conclusive, 5 Ju 87's inconclusive, 2 Me 109's inconclusive."

Edited by AndyL
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...I should also add that whilst most profiles and sources state N3035 is X, in the photo I have, and although the quality isn't perfect, a down-stroke is visible below the roundel which would be in the correct position for K. You can see for yourself when I post the photo.

 

K also tallies with the aircraft belonging to A Flight as the vast majority of Fighter Command squadrons at this time used a linear, alphabet marking system for aircraft. X being more probably a B Flight machine.

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Here you go Luka. As I said, the quality isn't exactly spectacular and these things are always open to interpretation, but for me that little bit of the letter that is visible poking out from the bottom of the roundel looks to be better positioned for a K. If it was an X I would have thought it would be further to the left and would have been obscured by the roundel.

 

See what you think...

 

dwXkiCd.png

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N3035 served with 66 for a remarkably long time and Dizzy did indeed fly her in the summer.

 

What I find problematic with the Osprey profile is that the roundel dimensions are wrong in it and there's no hint of part of the letter protruding from the bottom edge of the roundel. They also date their profile as September 1940 although by this time (and although there are exceptions) you would expect underwing roundels to have been applied.

 

Although I have seen the photo I posted as being said to date from October 1940, I think you could argue it's earlier. As for whether it's K or X, I personally think that the photo points more towards K than X and this is strengthened by N3035 being an A Flight machine.

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Wow, I'd gotten as far as pulling up the ORB and Appendixes, and consulting "Twelve Days in May", last night, but there's already more here than I saw in those sources.

 

It is, of course, possible that N3035 was K and later X (assuming that Allen was flying it later), but that photo sure looks like a 'K' to me.  (Edit: and, obviously, they wouldn't have slipped the new letter under the roundel!)

 

(Smithy's latest popped up as I was checking something.)  Looking at the photo, it looks like it might have an early-style rear-view mirror atop the windscreen?  That might help to narrow down when the photo could have been taken.

Edited by gingerbob
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@Smithy; Thanks for that pic! I agree that it is more likely a 'K' covered by that roundel.

Concerning the medium sea grey serials; I should have looked that up first, as it seems that the early Spitfires carried them throughout their service life. But I let my loudmouth fingers do the typing before double checking my own available references. Mea culpa. But thanks for the heads up.

 

I found this small grainy photo of 66sqn Spitfires seen from the starboard side;
http://blogs.iwm.org.uk/historic-duxford/files/2011/12/22.-HU_002377.-small.jpg
Judging from the snow covered airfield in that pic I think it was taken during the winter of '39-'40. Unfortunately LZ*K isn't on that pic, but LZ*X is (alas, serials unreadble. In the foreground, LZ*M's serial seems to read 'N3042' after magnifying it.). The code letters on those planes however didn't seem as crammed together as on the photo you posted, going all the way to the serial in fact. Could LZ*K be that one weird exception?
 

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8 minutes ago, Luka said:

The code letters on those planes however didn't seem as crammed together as on the photo you posted, going all the way to the serial in fact. Could LZ*K be that one weird exception?

 

Code letters could be a little "hemmed in" after the 11th May AM directive for the introduction of a yellow ring around the fuselage roundels. This led to all sorts of ways that squadrons did this.

 

With N3035 I think what's happened is that this was originally delivered to 66 Sqn in September 1939 when the fuselage roundel would have been small (25 inch?) and only blue and red. From that time until the photo was taken it has had its fuselage roundels completely repainted firstly with the red, white and blue roundel and then had the yellow ring added subsequently. My personal opinion is that it's probably kept the same painted and positioned coding from shortly after it was delivered and as such the K especially has become more and more over painted as roundel specifications changed.

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There seems to be quite some variety as to with which size roundels, codes and serials Spitfires ended up during that year with these quickly changing directives. Apparently, there were also fin flashes in several different styles until December 1940.


As for N3035; the more I look at the pic, the more I think this would be quite close to how it would have looked on May 13th 1940..

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"I did not know RAF fighters were involved in the air war over Holland in 1940"

 

For what its worth  most fighter sorties over holland in 1940  certainly  during the german invasion of the low countries were carried out by  RAF Blenheim 1F fighters.

 

Selwyn

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Years ago, I was convinced that Holland was on its own during the German invasion. The outdated, outnumbered and outclassed Dutch air force did manage to score around 50 kills in a few days, but to no avail, as the country was overrun in less than a week.

I knew about French armoured reinforcements (the Dutch army had just one WW1-era FT17 tank..) that had just crossed the Southern border somewhere before the bombardment of Rotterdam on May 14th and the Dutch capitulation the day after. But French fighter patrols over Zeeland and North Brabant were also something I didn't know about until recently.
Since the Netherlands initially intended to remain strictly neutral in the approaching war (like during WW1) I just assumed there would have been little reason for Great Britain and France to militarily support the country during an attack. Looks like that support was a lot more than I alway thought..

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I think the UK and France appreciated that the intention of the Netherlands would not really influence the evolution of the strategic picture, in comparison to the intention of Germany. Neutrality is only an option if there is no more powerful force willing to deny it to you.

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I think the Dutch military (as well as that of other nations btw) had severely underestimated the impact of of modern warfare; many Dutch tactics were still based on mere observations from WW1 in which it didn't even actively participate, and the Dutch army had little practical experience. The Waterlinie defence system with its inundated areas covered by casemate fire was useless against paratroopers and dive bombers, and the internal communication system proved inadequate given the sheer speed of the Blitzkrieg, especially over a small country like the Netherlands.
Even when these shortcomings were realised, I think the Dutch government silently hoped that neutrality would still be respected, although the invasion of Denmark and Norway one month earlier most likely shattered this hope to pieces..

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