Pegasus Miles Master Mk I - Finished

[AdrianMF]

Next up is this:

 

I did a wee comparison with the Frog/Novo Mk III  and they seem to agree, broadly speaking:

Frog rear fuselage doesn’t taper enough, which I have confirmed from photos, and the tailplanes and rudder seem a bit anaemic.

 

One of the bottom outer wing panels took industrial quantities of sanding to get down to thickness, but once there the detailing is nice and restrained (with sink marks, unsurprisingly given the thickness):

 

And a comparison to the plans in the Harborough Book of Miles Aircraft:

Pretty much bang on, except that the undercarriage is three or four mm further out on the plan (no fix planned) and the plan shows the later cockpit (I’ll go with photos on that one).

 

I hear the garden task list calling but I hope to get going on some more research and the cockpit soon.

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

 

[Heather Kay]

This looks like it will be good. I’m keen to see what you do with this kit. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Heather Kay

[AdrianMF]

I’m a very happy man. The Pegasus kit shows the Mk I as converted to a single-seat six gun fighter. So it needs a new cockpit canopy with a bulged windscreen and a back end like the Mk III to get it back to trainer-land. There is a photo on Wikipedia Commons here that shows the upper surfaces with yellow tips and an A1 roundel cutting into the camouflage, and the photos in the Book of Miles Aircraft show the side/lower view showing another A1 roundel cutting up on the side and an A roundel and serial number under the wing. So that’s what I’m doing: N7408. Now, where’s that scalpel?

 

[edit] Now I’m wondering if it has yellow elevators and what colour the lighter window frames might be...

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Max Headroom]

Ooh - front row seat!

 

I have a NOVO version. I got as far as slicing a chunk out of the rear fuselage, as according to Alan Hall when converting it to a MK.I it was too long, so the fact that the Pegasus fuselage is the same length is interesting. 

 

Trevor

[AdrianMF]

Strange, the fuselages were a very good match, you could almost swap the wings. Here’s a top shot:

 

The fuselage+rudder+spinner measure out at around 5 3/32”, which is 30’6.75”, compared to the quoted length of 30’5”. So that’s good.

 

Plus this:

I know it’s not scientific and lalalala but it looks like a Master to me! So I think the only difference with the Frog one is the lack of taper down to the rear and, of course, the front end.

 

[disclaimer] this is all based on references from “Aircraft of the Fighting Powers” era, which are responsible for a lot of errors in Airfix and Frog kits. Although in all fairness every aeroplane they drew was either top secret or arrived on the back of a scrap metal van!

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Max Headroom]

Thanks for the info. So it looks like I chopped up the fuselage for nothing!

 

Trevor

[stevehnz]

Fantastic, I'm delighted to see this emerge onto your work bench Adrian, I've one in stock, I've been waiting for years for someone to show me how to make it up.

If you haven't found it already, this is a site I've had bookmarked with some good internal photos of the Master.

Steve.

Edited April 22, 2019 by stevehnz

[AdrianMF]

Thanks Steve! Brilliant reference.

 

Regards,

Adrian

[AdrianMF]

Just to show that this thread isn’t all about comparing lumpy plastic to dodgy references, here’s some sticking together. Under the forest of clamps are the outer wing halves, and the fuselage halves are stuck together:

 

The centre section fit looks like it will be rougher than a hedgehog’s bottom. The cockpit will be inserted from below, and hopefully that can get replicated for the Master III.

 

Regards,

Adrian

[dude_gan_ainm]

It's great to see a Pegasus model being built.I was excited when this came out & bought one,it hasn't been touched since.Which turns out to be a good thing since my skills have improved & it will result in a better finished model if I get around to building it.I'm sure you will turn out another beauty Adrian,best of luck,

Jimbob.. .

[AdrianMF]

Ok, so when is this all going to get interesting? How about now?

 

I managed to wrestle the centre section together for a whole wing dry fit.   From the front the angles look a little off, too much anhedral on the centre section:

 

From above it’s clear that filler will be harmed in this build:

 

And I can’t even show you the front or side views in case persons of sensitive disposition are watching!

 

Now, where did I put that file...?

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

[zebra]

Looks like you've got your work cut out here Adrian! Will be following this one.

 

I vaguely remember building a Novo Master III when I was about 8. It's about time we had a decent kit - I'd love one in 1/48 - it's a pretty important aircraft (over 3000 built according to Wikipedia) so seems like a big gap.

[Rob S]

On 4/23/2019 at 2:43 AM, AdrianMF said:

The Pegasus kit shows the Mk I as converted to a single-seat six gun fighter. So it needs a new cockpit canopy with a bulged windscreen and a back end like the Mk III to get it back to trainer-land. There is a photo on Wikipedia Commons here that shows the upper surfaces with yellow tips and an A1 roundel cutting into the camouflage, and the photos in the Book of Miles Aircraft show the side/lower view showing another A1 roundel cutting up on the side and an A roundel and serial number under the wing. So that’s what I’m doing: N7408. Now, where’s that scalpel?

 

Now I'm confused (which isn't easy to do).  

 

Miles (late edit - didn't realise THAT pun!) away from my old copies of Scale Aircraft Modelling but this page quoting SAM says N7408 was the first production example.  

 

Also looking around I can't find agreement on the number of converted Fighters and the Serial Numbers - some say 26 others say 23 with Serials N7412 and N7801-7822 none of which are what the Pegasus kit Serial Number is.  So I'm not getting why you are saying the Pegasus kit "needs a needs a new cockpit canopy with a bulged windscreen and a back end like the Mk III to get it back to trainer-land." or am I missing something obvious?  

 

[Rob S]

I think this is what I was after showing the difference between Ia, Ib, and Ic.  

 

[AdrianMF]

Rob,

 

Sorry for any confusion. The Pegasus kit has decals for N7765 with an "18" on a red band. I have no idea how they chose a serial number. But I'm pretty sure the Pegasus kit is meant to be the fighter version because of the following:

 

Here's a picture of N7408:

 

It has the early canopy with the curved windscreen, straight bottom sill and no noticeable step in the roof line. The canopy was composed of two side-opening segments. For reference I have included the Frog Master III canopy, the Pegasus canopy and the Pegasus fuselage. The Pegasus kit has the first segment plus a bit more glass, but not as much as the full trainer canopy. 

 

Her's a picture of, er, N7***, where * could be 0,5,6,8 or 9 (so it could indeed be N7805, N7808 or N7809 from your range of fighter serials) which was converted to a fighter.:

 

This shows the shorter canopy, with the Pegasus parts for reference/comparison.

 

So I'm going to get as close to N7408 as I can, using photographs for reference. It would make sense that it was the first production example because it was quite heavily photographed.

 

There are also pictures out there that show the Kestrel-engined Master with the later, sliding canopy/faceted windscreen cockpit canopy more like the Master III. I'm guessing this is a change during production - maybe the "1A"? I won't be doing that because I like the earlier colour scheme with the earlier canopy.

 

Regards,

Adrian

 

[Dave Swindell]

On 4/22/2019 at 5:43 PM, AdrianMF said:

The Pegasus kit shows the Mk I as converted to a single-seat six gun fighter. So it needs a new cockpit canopy with a bulged windscreen and a back end like the Mk III to get it back to trainer-land

Adrian

The version depicted by the Pegasus kit is what Miles referred to as the "Master Fighter" and the Air Ministry referred to as the "Master six-gun Fighter Trainer".

It was belatedly assigned the Miles type No. M24. The prototype was converted from N7412 ( AM records) or N7413 (Miles employee records) .

25 production machines N7780-N7782 & N7801-N7822. All completed and delivered in June 1940 and were used for gunnery training by OTU's and FTS's (so you could build it as per kit and still fit the trainer rules)

Photo's of N7809 show no evidence of guns being fitted, or a gun sight edit, ring & bead fitted in above photo!. Miles the Wartime years quotes two employees, one who said in firing trials "the wings fell off after a while" and the ohter  "the glue didn't stand up to the gases induced by firing the guns" This was presumably the prototype, it's probable that the production machines were never fitted with armament.

 

Pegasus kit markings:-

N7765 Miles Master M9b Master MkI

24/5/40 production test flights

31/5/40 delivered to Sealand for 5 FTS

2/7/40 to 14 FTS at Cranfield

27/1/41 at 5 FTS Ternhill

25/9/41 Fatal accident total loss

 

On 4/26/2019 at 6:25 PM, AdrianMF said:

Her's a picture of, er, N7***

Most likely N7809, there's a front 3/4 photo of the same machine taken at what appears to be the same place and time in Miles the Wartime years. It looks like part of a set of walkround photo's taken at Woodley prior to N7809's delivery to 5 FTS Sealand on 21/6/1940. There's also a later photo of it in service with what looks to me like a black or blue band round the fuselage immediately aft of the roundel with a large no 47 superimposed in white, and 47 in blue low on the fuselage immediately in front of the rudder post.

On 4/26/2019 at 6:25 PM, AdrianMF said:

So I'm going to get as close to N7408 as I can, using photographs for reference. It would make sense that it was the first production example

Yes, N7408 was the first production Master I

On 4/26/2019 at 3:58 PM, Rob S said:

I think this is what I was after showing the difference between Ia, Ib, and Ic.  

The link doesn't work for me Rob, and I think you're confusing Miles designations with Air Ministry Designations

Miles M9 - Private venture advanced trainer - rebuilt as:-

Miles M9 Kestrel - rebuilt as:-

Miles M9a Master Prototype N3300

Miles M9b Master Mk.I N7408, the first production machine was actually more of a developement machine initially, starting out as single cockpit with a chin radiator before being reworked to what became production standard as per Adiran's photo's above,

Miles M9c Master Mk.Ia introduced the "flat" windscreen, sliding front canopy and drop down rear panels for the rear cockpit, to replace the "curved" windscreen (which actually had a small flat panel at the front) and starboard hinged front and rear cockpit covers.

Late production Miles M9c Master Mk.Ia's had clipped square wing tips as per Master Mk.II and Mk.III

 

[Rob S]

5 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

The link doesn't work for me Rob, and I think you're confusing Miles designations with Air Ministry Designations

Sorry probably didn't work because it was the Master Milestones I pdf from this page.  

 

And yes I did mix up the designations from that pdf but where I had confused myself (actually it was my laptop's fault as it didn't load up all of the photos properly) was not seeing what Adrian was talking about with the difference in length of the Canopies.  I even have both kits here and didn't pick it up!  So much for my Observation Badge!  

 

So yes I think I understand now what Adrian is doing.  

 

Now just wondering how many M.9b s were produced?  

 

[Rob S]

5 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

The version depicted by the Pegasus kit is what Miles referred to as the "Master Fighter" and the Air Ministry referred to as the "Master six-gun Fighter Trainer".

It was belatedly assigned the Miles type No. M24. The prototype was converted from N7412 ( AM records) or N7413 (Miles employee records) .

25 production machines N7780-N7782 & N7801-N7822. All completed and delivered in June 1940 and were used for gunnery training by OTU's and FTS's (so you could build it as per kit and still fit the trainer rules)

 

Ha ha ha ha ha.  Had to have a laugh when I read that because I thought the same before this start of this GB so asked the Question : 

 

 

Posted November 2, 2018

Following on from the above train of thought would a Miles M.24 Master Fighter be eligible for this GB?  

 

 

To which I received the Reply : 

 

 

 

Posted November 3, 2018

Hmm. I did some looking and I'd have to say no. Despite it's lineage, it was a fighter, not a trainer. (Although 'fighter' may be a somewhat optimistic title. 'Armed target' may be more appropriate!)

 

 

One to refer to the Video Referee?  Ha ha ha.  

 

The only thing is if it is now allowed and I managed to have a go at completing it (realistically that will never happen at my rate of production!) then what am I going to put in for the "Armed Target Group Build"?  

 

Then again given what you said about the effect of the machine guns on the wings it could also be an entry into the "Wingless / Never got off the Ground / And when it did - Falling out of the Sky Group Build".  But pretty sure my entry for that Group Build would be the Percival P.74!  

 

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Rob S said:

Sorry probably didn't work because it was the Master Milestones I pdf from this page.

Ta for the link, I'd forgotten the Museum of Brekshire Aviatiion had a good website.

 

1 hour ago, Rob S said:

So much for my Observation Badge!

Me ditto, I've got the Pavla kit as well and hadn't twigged that the Pegasus kit was the "figher" version until Adrian pointed it ouot

 

1 hour ago, Rob S said:

Now just wondering how many M.9b s were produced?  

Difficult to say as the point of introduction of the M9c on the producion line isn't known

There were two contracts for the Master I for 500 each, the second contract had the last 100 completed as Mk II's, all the others of the second contract were M9c's

N7685 was the prototype M9c, but the change wasn't introduced immediately.

N7845 was an M9b

Of the first production batch all from N7947 onwards were definitely M9c's

So somewhere between 293 and 356 by my reconing.

To confuse matters somewhat, quite a few surviving M9b's were converted to M9c standard in 1942-43

1 hour ago, Rob S said:

Posted November 2, 2018

Following on from the above train of thought would a Miles M.24 Master Fighter be eligible for this GB?

Hadn't spotted that

1 hour ago, Rob S said:

Posted November 3, 2018

Hmm. I did some looking and I'd have to say no. Despite it's lineage, it was a fighter, not a trainer.

I'd have to disagree with that, Miles might have wanted it to be a fighter, but the Air Ministry never saw it as one, it was only ever used for training, and apart from trials it's doubtful if it was ever armed.

However, I don't want to tread on toes, so I'd say unless the GB mods revise their decision then the M24 is out for this GB.

[Rob S]

20 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Ta for the link, I'd forgotten the Museum of Brekshire Aviatiion had a good website.

Yes lots of information there and I did not know about THIS.  Great work by all involved!  

 

Now did I have the Pavla kits of the Master and Martinet?  If not I'd better get them quick smart!  

 

[AdrianMF]

Well I have made some progress:

 

On the left is the Master MkI. I have glued the fuselage together, added the fin, made some pins and holes for tailplane mounting and cut away the larger trainer cockpit opening (with a bit added back where my cut went astray). I have sorted out the wing alignment with some fairly brutal bending and trimming. The Pegasus kit has some more “issues” too. I started the tailplane pin hole in the middle of the port stub but it wouldn’t come out to the middle of the stub marked on the far side of the fuselage - it is a mm or so lower on the starboard side. So I started measuring some more. The port wing fairing joins the wing 1-2mm lower than on he other side. The fine engraved lines along the fuselage sides are not on the same slope either, so I will be filling one or both - I’m not sure I need to re-scribe them. The sides do align well and there wasn’t much of a seam.

 

The rounded plastic card is the start of the instrument panel - I’m going to build the interior separately to slide into the cockpit from below.

 

On the right is a sneaky debut from the Frog/Novo Master MkIII, for which I haven’t yet started a topic. It’s a lovely little kit in terms of fit but sadly has some shape issues all of its own. It is far too wide, which I won’t be fixing. The differing widths mean that I can’t clone my MkI cockpit as I had hoped. It also doesn’t taper enough down to the fin. I will be fixing that, and I’ve cut out the rear upper fuselage as a prelude to re-shaping. The Novo plastic is extremely brittle. The fuselage is 1mm or so too tall by the canopy too but I want to have some fun in the build!

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

[AdrianMF]

Three hours have gone quickly!

 

I have started the cockpit for the Master Mk I using the kit seats and some plastic:

 

It is removable at this stage because I still have to make the cockpit cover mould, and it’s easier to paint that way:

 

And the Mk III has been tapered in profile at the back:

I managed to sand down some of the width at the back too.

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

[AdrianMF]

Cockpit interior is now done:

I’m debating whether to modify the kit canopy as a vacform master or make my own from scratch...

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

[AdrianMF]

...and painted:

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian

[AdrianMF]

And I decided to go with a scratch build canopy master to get a good fit at the bottom: 

There is a perpendicular rectangular section at the front of the domed windscreen, hence the weird piece of plastic at the front.

 

Black edges for the plastic, balsa infill and some Milliput next...

 

Thanks for looking,

Adrian