Douglas Bader’s Spitfire Va, serial W3185

[Jonny]

Hi, everyone -

I'm sure this has been asked already,   BUT ... I can’t find it,

 

I was sorting some of my stash and came across the Airfix 1/48 Spitfire allegedly flown by Bader, serial W3185. (SWMBO calls that ‘rearranging the pile), as I’m sure some of you will understand!

 

The instructions call for fitting the ‘broad’ propeller, part 24, and the ‘Marks 1 / 2’ pattern oil cooler, parts 57 and 58.

 

I thought Spitfires Mark V had a  ‘round’ oil cooler, and this is supplied as parts 59 and 60.

 

I’m rather confused by Airfix’s suggested combination of broad propeller, Mark 1 / 2 oil cooler and serial (an early Mark V?)

 

Is Airfix right, and the propeller / oil cooler combination is correct, or should I use the narrow propeller (part 22) with the Mark 1 / 2 oil cooler, or ... what?

 

Any (polite) suggestions or ideas gratefully received, with thanks,

 

Jonny

 

 

[Work In Progress]

W3185 was definitely a Va rather than a II, and I don't believe there is any controversy about it being the aircraft in which Bader was downed over France (althought there is of course considerabel controversy about what downed him). I find it very hard to believe that an airframe supplied new with a Merlin 45 could ever have had the D shaped oil cooler. I would definitely fit the circular type. You can see the prop for yourself here:

 

See also earlier thread here:

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Work In Progress

[Jonny]

Oh thanks, Work In Progress!

 

You’ve confirmed my suspicions regarding the oil cooler.  And explained the ‘propeller’ issue, too.

 

very much obliged,

 

Jonny

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

Any (polite) suggestions or ideas gratefully received, with thanks,

 

on the questions, or the kit in general?

this one

Airfix - Nr. A50030 - 1:48

 

there are a few issues with it,  do you want any info on that? 

 

 

 

[Jonny]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:32 PM, Troy Smith said:

on the questions, or the kit in general?

this one

Airfix - Nr. A50030 - 1:48

 

there are a few issues with it,  do you want any info on that? 

 

 

 

Well, on my questions ... but if you can offer something regarding the issues you have had with the kit, I’d like to know!

 

Thanks,

 

Jonny

 

[epozar]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-48-spitfire-mkva-douglas-bader-a50030-in--t20233.html

"Actually, the round oil cooler was introduced in late versions of the Mk.II and only a few early Mk.V's. From Spitfire: The History, p.107 for the Mk.II

367 fit Mk III oil cooler 11-4-41.

The Mk III reference here is for the Spitfire Mk.III, which was the first Spitfire with the round oil cooler. Mk.II's were produced from June 1940 to July 1941. First flight of W3185 Mk.VA was 10 May 1941, so it would have had the round oil cooler. Only the first 23 Mk.V's had the earlier oil cooler, which caused overheating problems. These Spitfires were soon converted to the round oil cooler. From p.139 on the Mk.V

The Rolls-Royce conversions were rushed into service, as they were urgently needed, and the aeroplane was soon in trouble, the first hint of which was a message to the Air Staff from the DOR dated 23 March 1941. It said - "You will remember that the proper oil cooler for the Merlin 45 Spitfire, i.e., the same type as used on the Spitfire Mk III, was not available when the first batch of 23 Spitfires were converted at Hucknall. We realised that oil cooling would probably be a little inadequate and we have had the following signal from Fighter Command - 'From Headquarters Fighter Command. Spitfire oil coolers evidence from 92 Squadron, Biggin Hill, gives excessively high oil temperatures above 150°C and low oil pressure below 45 lb per sq in [310 kPa] at high altitudes. Request immediate consideration of Mk II [sic] oil coolers retrospectively'. It is clear we should make the change as soon as possible. If you can agree can you please arrange for Fighter Command to be instructed to return their machines in suitable sized batches".

Looks like the round oil cooler are parts 59 and 60 on the sprue."

[NPL]

What about the kick bottom cartoon? Airfix includes it, but did Bader's Spitfires use it -- or was it only his Hurricane? The photo included is so blurred that something could be it could also just be something else ... dirt?

[gingerbob]

14 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

I find it very hard to believe that an airframe supplied new with a Merlin 45 could ever have had the D shaped oil cooler.

10 hours ago, epozar said:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/airfixtributeforum/airfix-1-48-spitfire-mkva-douglas-bader-a50030-in--t20233.html

"Actually, the round oil cooler was introduced in late versions of the Mk.II and only a few early Mk.V's. From Spitfire: The History, p.107 for the Mk.II

Only the first 23 Mk.V's had the earlier oil cooler, which caused overheating problems. These Spitfires were soon converted to the round oil cooler. From p.139 on the Mk.V

 

Well, as a matter of fact, quite a few more than the "first 23 Mk.Vs" - which were actually the intact cannon Mk.Is given the new engine - used the earlier style oil cooler, simply because the new type was not yet in adequate production.  However, it does appear that W3185 would have been fitted with the standard Mk.V type from new.

 

Also, it seems quite unlikely that any Mk.IIs were delivered with the new cooler, since the existing Mk.Vs needing it retrofitted would have priority, and that work went into August at least.

 

As a Supermarine-built early V, I'd expect it to have a DH prop (same as standard on the Mk.I).  Be careful of photographs claiming to show Bader's Va- they often are really a Mk.II.  I can't say offhand about the one shown in this thread, however.

 

bob

 

p.s. Having now seen my comment in the thread linked to above, I'll clarify that no crowbar (or clips for it) would be present on the door.  And by the time of the aircraft's loss (August '41) I think it had metal-skinned ailerons, even if originally delivered with fabric ones.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by gingerbob

[Andre B]

Hi,

I've got the AZ 1/72 kit (AZ 7301) with markings for Douglas Bader's W 3185. I do not knew how accurate the decals are but there are no "kick cartoon" with the decals. But I am not sure that W 3185 had that cartoon. It has the "pennant" for both sides and what I knew they where only on left side(?).

 

I used the Airfix Spitfire Mk. Va kit for building Bader's Spitfire with Xtradecals letters (X72-189) and the only missing parts in the kit where the metall ailerons. Sad Airfix missed that option and didn't made it with alternative ailerons.

 

Sadly Airfix still havn't made the W 3185 in 1/72 and I think the main obstacle here are the ailerons...

 

 

My build att IPMS Stockholm (one of several Spitfire builds). Still without serials for W 3185 but now I got them from the AZ kit...

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10648&start=50

 

I used the AML vinylmasks. What I remember they are available in 1/72, 1/48 and 1/32 scale. They are nice to use and can be used for several builds if one use them with care. But one have to check the camouflage pattern so it goes well and looks accurate toghether with the decals (the topside roundel on the left wing).

 

http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/nraviation/AML-1-72-Spitfire-Mk-I-II-Masks.php

 

 

Cheers / André

Edited April 20, 2019 by Andre B

[Bedders]

The main challenge with doing W3185 is that there seem to be no photos of it, at least that I have seen. The photos that exist of Bader and folks around the aircraft 'D@B' are all, I believe, of P7966, Bader's Mark II. The Rotol propeller, e.g. in the photo above, is an indicator of that. Bader only had his Va for a very short time and my expectation is that it had the de Havilland propeller, metal ailerons (which Bader had also had retro-fitted to P7966) and maybe the round oil cooler, but maybe not. My guess is that as it was a new aircraft, the D@B codes were more professionally painted on W3185 than on P7966, which look like a bit of a lash-up with two different-sized codes for the Ds and the Bs, perhaps different colours too, and some in-the-field repainting of the camo to cover the old codes (or to cover battle damage). I'm still trying to work out whether P7966 had a replacement rudder, as the photo above seems to indicate.

 

Justin

Edited April 22, 2019 by Bedders

[Andre B]

1 hour ago, Bedders said:

The main challenge with doing W3185 is that there seem to be no photos of it, at least that I have seen. The photos that exist of Bader and folks around the aircraft 'D@B' are all, I believe, of P7966, Bader's Mark II. The Rotol propeller, e.g. in the photo above, is an indicator of that. Bader only had his Va for a very short time and my expectation is that it had the de Havilland propeller, metal elevators (which Bader had also had retro-fitted to P7966) and maybe the round oil cooler, but maybe not. My guess is that as it was a new aircraft, the D@B codes were more professionally painted on W3185 than on P7966, which look like a bit of a lash-up with two different-sized codes for the Ds and the Bs, perhaps different colours too, and some in-the-field repainting of the camo to cover the old codes (or to cover battle damage). I'm still trying to work out whether P7966 had a replacement rudder, as the photo above seems to indicate.

 

Justin

Mmm...

Replacement rudder? I've seen pictures (not photos) of W 3185 with replacement rudder. Did both P 7966 and W 3185 have replacement rudders or... ?

 

Cheers / André

[Work In Progress]

if you're going to consider replacement rudders, bear in mind that every aircraft which had a replacement rudder also existed with its original, so the question is meaningless unless you specify the date for which you want the information.

[Bedders]

(Reply to Andre) This is the problem I think. In the absence of photos of the real thing, artists' impressions of 'W3185' are probably based on photos of P7966. The photo earlier in this thread of P7966 shows a colour anomaly which seems to indicate a replacement rudder, and this has been taken into artists' impressions/profiles of 'W3185'. Incidentally my earlier post has an error about metal elevators. I meant metal ailerons, and have corrected that.

 

Justin

Edited April 22, 2019 by Bedders

[Tail-Dragon]

^{Here's something I wondered about, was Bader's Spit Va named?  I seem to recall it had 'Manxman' or 'Lord Loyd' or something like that on the right hand side.}

[Peter Roberts]

Good pick up - BOTH aircraft are presentation aircraft.

 

P7966 was named "Manxman"

 

W3185 was named "Lord Lloyd I"

 

This information according to 'Gifts of War'. Also according to 'Gifts of War', W3185 was NOT a new aircraft when Bader began flying it. After passing through 39 MU it served with 145 Squadron, receiving damage on 22 July 1941. It was returned to 41 Sqn on 28 July but taken over by 616 Sqn and became Baders' plane. Apparently photos of the aircraft coded 'D-B' show the presentation name has been obliterated.

 

PR

Edited April 23, 2019 by Peter Roberts