A 1/72 Gloster Javelin that isn't rubbish

[BristolBlue]

Is there not also an amazing build by “nobby” sorry I don’t know how to reference other threads.  I loved his builds.  https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234917993-airfix-gloster-javelin/&do=findComment&comment=1274498

[tempestfan]

11 hours ago, Antti_K said:

It is of course true what Selwyn said. Just like James mentioned above I was working with the idea that the new Airfix kit is the most accurate one available.

 

It would be interesting to visit a museum and take measurements using plumb lines. I think it is the best way to get reliable readings. How difficult it would be to arrange I can't tell; here in Finland such activities are usually a strict "no-no" but on the other hand it depends to whom you are talking to. And if you get a permit you should take all possible readings; after all it might be another area in the kit that is inaccurate. Javelin is difficult one to work with as it sits nose high on the ground.

 

Cheers,

Antti

There used to be one at Baginton, and Wiki says it’s still there, though it’s a 5 according to the article, so may differ in the dimensions required due to the unreheated engines. One could get quite close to the exhibits some 20 years ago, it would probably be a question of asking kindly before a visit.

[Selwyn]

5 hours ago, tempestfan said:

There used to be one at Baginton, and Wiki says it’s still there, though it’s a 5 according to the article, so may differ in the dimensions required due to the unreheated engines. One could get quite close to the exhibits some 20 years ago, it would probably be a question of asking kindly before a visit.

There is A FAW 8 at Newark,  as a reheated jet the back end should be the same as the FAW 9 as the main difference was in the radar nose. I have found the Newark people quite accomodating in the past if you ask them nicely.  They let me take some close up pictures of their  Meteor  NF 12 airbrakes  a few years ago.

 

Selwyn

[bentwaters81tfw]

There's a 9R at Flixton, and it's parked out on grass. XH892 The owners would be more than happy if you wanted to measure it. They are a very accommodating museum.

https://aviationmuseum.site/index.php/2017/09/06/restoration-javelin-xh982-part-ii/

[71chally]

The Staverton, Duxford and Newark FAW.9s would be the easiest to measure as they sit on smooth hangar floors.

Just need someone with the time, enthusiasm and ability to ask for access and get measurements!

[Duncan B]

On 7/10/2019 at 1:34 AM, BristolBlue said:

Is there not also an amazing build by “nobby” sorry I don’t know how to reference other threads.  I loved his builds. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234917993-airfix-gloster-javelin/&do=findComment&comment=1274498

Nobby's Javelin build was quite something. The way he manufactured the rear end for his was inspirational as I remember it. 

 

I have been gathering Frog/Novo Javelin kits with the intention of chopping the back ends off them to use on my Airfix FAW9 builds however I do have a resin replacement nose or two for the Frog kits so might be tempted to build one of them to completion to see how it compares (I'm not too worried about the lack of cockpit detail in 1/72).

 

If I start on one of these 'cut and shut' conversions you can bet that Airfix will announce a scaled down to 1/72 version of their sublime 1/48 Javelin just as I'm applying the primer so best I get started then!

 

Duncan B

[stevehnz]

2 hours ago, Duncan B said:

 

If I start on one of these 'cut and shut' conversions you can bet that Airfix will announce a scaled down to 1/72 version of their sublime 1/48 Javelin just as I'm applying the primer so best I get started then!

I think that's a cracking idea Duncan, off you go then.

Steve.

[Navy Bird]

8 hours ago, stevehnz said:

I think that's a cracking idea Duncan, off you go then.

Steve.

 

I'll be starting mine soon, so Airfix will definitely be making an announcement. But they'll most likely wait until Duncan and I finish our models.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Antti_K]

Bill and Duncan: Keep calm and build Javelins😉

 

Antti

[Navy Bird]

I've been preparing my Javelin project and I noticed that my sample of the 1:72 Airfix FAW.9 kit (#4045) actually has Heller T.3 kit (#346) sprues, in addition to the extra FAW.9 sprue with the malnourished exhaust section and FAW.9 canopy. My sprues are stamped 346, whereas photos of the real FAW.9 kit show them to be stamped 4045. Either Airfix made a mistake packaging my kit and used some leftover Heller sprues, or the modeller who I purchased it from mixed up the sprues during a late night frenzy of sprue fondling.   

 

This means I can't build an FAW.9 from this kit without a lot of surgery - move the nose gear well, build a new rear fuselage section, change the fairing on top of the fuselage spine, etc. And I can't build a T.3 without a pen nib rear fuselage and exhausts, plus a different canopy. Currently there are no Airfix FAW.9 kits on US eBay, and the T.3 kits are rather obscenely priced.

 

I have the Plastyk FAW.9 kit, but compared to the drawings included with the Airfix 1:48 scale kit, it is, shall we say, just an "impression" of a Javelin.

 

It seems I am cursed in my desire to build a 1:72 Javelin...

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Antti_K]

And T.3 had longer front fuselage as well... Is it possible for you to find a Novo (originally Frog) kit? I found it to be a good basis for some "serious" Javelin modeling.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[tempestfan]

5 hours ago, Antti_K said:

And T.3 had longer front fuselage as well... 

 

Cheers,

Antti

Longer than what? I am admittedly in no way a Javelin expert, but it was my understanding from contemporary reviews that bemoaned the choice of 3 by Heller the 3 front fuselage is longer than 1and 2, but the same as the later fighter versions (possibly only 8 and 9, though). Long time since I read those reviews, though...

[rs2man]

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

Longer than what? I am admittedly in no way a Javelin expert, but it was my understanding from contemporary reviews that bemoaned the choice of 3 by Heller the 3 front fuselage is longer than 1and 2, but the same as the later fighter versions (possibly only 8 and 9, though). Long time since I read those reviews, though...

There are 3 lengths of Javelin front fuselage .  The FAW1/4/5/7/9 are all the same length , the FAW2/6/8 all have the American radar & are therefore shorter & finally the T3 is longer than all the fighter variants .

 

As regards the reviews bemoaning the choice of the T3 , it was actually a clever choice from a markings point of view since all Javelin squadrons had 1 or 2 .

Edited July 16, 2019 by rs2man
Additional info

[71chally]

As RSMan says the T.3 was the longest version (I have it at at 60' 5"), it's fwd fuselage was extended by  just over 3 1/2ft the design work being carried out by Air Services Training of Hamble.  The extension compensated for the change in c of g caused by removing that heavy radar of the fighter versions, and I believe increased fuel capacity.

 

I was looking at my T.3 kit the other day, is it me or does the rear fuselage look a tad too narrow for that variant aswel?

[rs2man]

Just now, 71chally said:

I was looking at my T.3 kit the other day, is it me or does the rear fuselage look a tad too narrow for that variant aswel?

I have no concrete evidence one way or the other , but I can't recall anyone ever commenting on it , unlike the distinctly bodged FAW9 .

[Antti_K]

Thank you James🙂

 

You already answered the question "longer than what"

 

Cheers,

Antti

[rs2man]

20 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I've been preparing my Javelin project and I noticed that my sample of the 1:72 Airfix FAW.9 kit (#4045) actually has Heller T.3 kit (#346) sprues, in addition to the extra FAW.9 sprue with the malnourished exhaust section and FAW.9 canopy. My sprues are stamped 346, whereas photos of the real FAW.9 kit show them to be stamped 4045. Either Airfix made a mistake packaging my kit and used some leftover Heller sprues, or the modeller who I purchased it from mixed up the sprues during a late night frenzy of sprue fondling.   

 

This means I can't build an FAW.9 from this kit without a lot of surgery - move the nose gear well, build a new rear fuselage section, change the fairing on top of the fuselage spine, etc. And I can't build a T.3 without a pen nib rear fuselage and exhausts, plus a different canopy. Currently there are no Airfix FAW.9 kits on US eBay, and the T.3 kits are rather obscenely priced.

 

I have the Plastyk FAW.9 kit, but compared to the drawings included with the Airfix 1:48 scale kit, it is, shall we say, just an "impression" of a Javelin.

 

It seems I am cursed in my desire to build a 1:72 Javelin...

 

Cheers,

Bill

I can help you with the T3 canopy & you can buy the pen nib section in resin from Whirlybird Models .  PM me about the canopy if you're interested .

 

John Green

Nantwich , Cheshire

[71chally]

Probably cheaper to buy a second hand Heller T.3 kit, they can be had cheaply, though not sure in the 'States.

 

BTW, talking of lengths does anyone know why in some sources the FAW.9 is quoted at about 5" shorter than a 7?  I know the rear fuselage & pipes are different but the tips of the tailplane are the furthest aft point.  Is there a difference in the radome, or is it possibly like the mythical Meteor NF lengths?

[rs2man]

2 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Probably cheaper to buy a second hand Heller T.3 kit, they can be had cheaply, though not sure in the 'States.

 

BTW, talking of lengths does anyone know why in some sources the FAW.9 is quoted at about 5" shorter than a 7?  I know the rear fuselage & pipes are different but the tips of the tailplane are the furthest aft point.  Is there a difference in the radome, or is it possibly like the mythical Meteor NF lengths?

As far as I recall , all FAW9s were converted from FAW7s so you'd expect the nose to be the same . 

[Antti_K]

7 hours ago, 71chally said:

BTW, talking of lengths does anyone know why in some sources the FAW.9 is quoted at about 5" shorter than a 7?  I know the rear fuselage & pipes are different but the tips of the tailplane are the furthest aft point.  Is there a difference in the radome, or is it possibly like the mythical Meteor NF lengths?

This is pure guesswork but it is possible that one measurement is given along the Water Line when the other one is given along a horizontal line (parallel to the root chord for example).

 

Cheers,

Antti

[71chally]

Not sure how the measurements are taken, but in theory all done the same way.  Whether the aircraft is sat on the ground or in flight, the longest dimension is from the tip of the radome to the tailplane tips.

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 7/17/2019 at 3:36 AM, 71chally said:

Not sure how the measurements are taken, but in theory all done the same way.  Whether the aircraft is sat on the ground or in flight, the longest dimension is from the tip of the radome to the tailplane tips.

Ah, one of my favorite subjects. “Sit” and the location of the horizontal and vertical tails can make a difference on the length of the airplane’s “shadow” on the ground compared to one taken along the waterline: see https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/05/accurate-three-view-drawings.html

 

What’s worse, tabular dimensions (no reference drawing) can omit details like the barricade deflector on the nose of F9Fs or the refueling probe on the A4D (A-4). For some reason, some Douglas dimensioned drawings of the A-4D show the overall length on the top-view from the tip of the nose to the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer, when the tip of the vertical fin actually extends a bit beyond that.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Tailspin Turtle
Singular shadow

[Navy Bird]

On 15/07/2019 at 19:03, Antti_K said:

And T.3 had longer front fuselage as well... Is it possible for you to find a Novo (originally Frog) kit? I found it to be a good basis for some "serious" Javelin modeling.

 

The Novo kit is easily found over here. I have the Plastyk FAW.9, and I've read that it is "based" on the second Frog kit. I'm going to take a closer look at it and see if it's worth spending any time on it. I've seen some very nice OOB builds of it, but it doesn't match the scale drawings I have very well. I'm afraid to do justice to the Javelin with this will result in a Frankenbash, like I had to do with my 1:72 Trumpy Lightning. I may be getting too old for that.  

 

On 16/07/2019 at 08:07, rs2man said:

I can help you with the T3 canopy & you can buy the pen nib section in resin from Whirlybird Models .  PM me about the canopy if you're interested .

 

Thanks for the offer, but I managed to find a Heller T.3 on eBay, and it was cheap so I bought it. Previously I had looked for an Airfix T.3, and they are crazy expensive, I guess because they're rare.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Space Ranger]

10 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

Ah, one of my favorite subjects. “Sit” and the location of the horizontal and vertical tails can make a difference on the length of the airplane’s “shadows” on the ground compared to one taken along the waterline: see https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/05/accurate-three-view-drawings.html

 

What’s worse, tabular dimensions (no reference drawing) can omit details like the barricade deflector on the nose of F9Fs or the refueling probe on the A4D (A-4). For some reason, some Douglas dimensioned drawings of the A-4D show the overall length on the top-view from the tip of the nose to the trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer, when the tip of the vertical fin actually extends a bit beyond that.

The B-58 is another case in point. The official overall length from Convair's own drawings is 96 ft 9 in. But that is from the tip of the radome to the aft tip of the vertical fin and does not include the nose instrument probe, another 5 ft 1.5 in. Aviation News assumed the official length included the probe, and their drawings reflect this. Italeri used those drawings for their kit. Consequently, Italeri's B-58 is "squished" longitudinally by about 5% throughout the entire airframe.

[tempestfan]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 8:32 AM, rs2man said:

There are 3 lengths of Javelin front fuselage .  The FAW1/4/5/7/9 are all the same length , the FAW2/6/8 all have the American radar & are therefore shorter & finally the T3 is longer than all the fighter variants .

 

As regards the reviews bemoaning the choice of the T3 , it was actually a clever choice from a markings point of view since all Javelin squadrons had 1 or 2 .

 

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 12:31 PM, Antti_K said:

Thank you James🙂

 

You already answered the question "longer than what"

 

Cheers,

Antti

Thank you both, I probably Need to spend more time checking Facts and less trying to recall something 😫 It would have probably helped had I checked my Dynavector kit, or simply the old SMI/Aeromodeller darwings... but in my defence, I was on the Train.