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Harry_the_Spider

A 1/72 Gloster Javelin that isn't rubbish

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Who makes one?

 

I don't mind a bit of filling, but after my Hawker Hunter experience I won't by buying a MisterCraft.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Go for the Heller / Airfix T3 or the Airfix FAW9. Both long out of production but pop up regularly on EBay or at shows. The  Frog FAW9 is cruder in comparison (although I think may represent the afterburning cans of the FAW9 better) and the Plastyk FAW7/9 is horrid. 

 

Edit - Mistercraft is the Plastyk mould reboxed. The rebox won’t make it any less horrid!!!

 

Pat

Edited by Pat C

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'ere ya go 'arry, have a look here:-

thought I could remember someone saying about cross kitting, fill yer boots!

 

Paul

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Hello Harry,

 

to my eye the Airfix FAW.9 looks better than it's Frog counterpart. The forward fuselage, canopies and intakes are very good. Also the wing and those vortex generators are better. However if you look at the Airfix model from above (or below) you will immediately note the out of shape rear fuselage. Both kits have raised panel lines.

 

I took some measurements and made some calculations. Here are the results.

 

12a7fdc1-0216-4688-a7ed-a5d9da7b606a.JPG

 

6fdd3ebe-00da-4a9c-aa8d-4bd0af91f5b1.JPG

 

Comparing these two models to photos of the real thing the 1/48 scale kit is perfect. The smaller Airfix kit has it's rear fuselage shape totally wrong in plan view. Unfortunately I don't have measurements taken from a real Javelin.

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

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Cracking build Antti!

 

I'm guessing the rear fuselage is narrower in plan because it is based on the Heller T.3 mold?

I enjoyed building both the Heller and Airfix Javelins, If you go for a Frog one make sure you get an original Frog boxing, the various reissues are ghastly!

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Thank you James🙂

 

This is my "number 2" 1/48 scale Javelin. Third one will be a FAW.4 using Alley Cat parts. My old "Frog" kit is actually produced by Novo. I got it from a friend without a box, decals or instructions. And yes, the quality was terrible. Flash everywhere, burn marks on the parts and very soft details. But perhaps one could mate the rear fuselage into the Airfix kit.

 

Antti

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Posted (edited)

71Chally is quite correct - the 1/72 Airfix FAW9 is too narrow at the rear end because they just provided a new rear end to the existing T3 fuselage . 

The only way to build a nicely detailed and accurate OOB Javelin in 1/72 is to build the Heller T3 .  If you're prepared to do some conversion , Whirlybird Models do a couple of resin pieces to do the FAW1-6 or FAW7 rear fuselages , though you can only build an FAW1 , 4 or 5 with the early piece because the FAW2 and 6 have the shorter nose with the American radar . Should you want an accurate FAW9 you need the rear fuselage from the Frog kit , or preferably the much-maligned Plastyk kit . This latter is largely the Frog kit with rescribed panel lines , but the FAW9 jetpipes are MUCH better than the Frog ones . 

Edited by rs2man
Grammatical correction

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A 72th Dragmaster that isn't rubbish... what would you like for your other two wishes? 🧞‍♂️  🧙‍♂️

 

There isn't a really good Jav in 72nd, but what they said ^ up there is it.

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On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:15 PM, rs2man said:

71Chally is quite correct - the 1/72 Airfix FAW9 is too narrow at the rear end because they just provided a new rear end to the existing T3 fuselage . 

The only way to build a nicely detailed and accurate OOB Javelin in 1/72 is to build the Heller T3 .  If you're prepared to do some conversion , Whirlybird Models do a couple of resin pieces to do the FAW1-6 or FAW7 rear fuselages , though you can only build an FAW1 , 4 or 5 with the early piece because the FAW2 and 6 have the shorter nose with the American radar . Should you want an accurate FAW9 you need the rear fuselage from the Frog kit , or preferably the much-maligned Plastyk kit . This latter is largely the Frog kit with rescribed panel lines , but the FAW9 jetpipes are MUCH better than the Frog ones . 

Gentlemen

 

I must offer my apologies since I have been the bearer of incorrect information .  I stated above that the Plastyk kit had better jetpipes than the Frog but , whilst amending my stash stocksheet yesterday I realised that the kit to which I was referring is in fact by Chemetic .  I think they're the same kit , but cannot be 100% sure so , for the moment , my comments above refer solely to the Chemetic kit

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, rs2man said:

Gentlemen

 

I must offer my apologies since I have been the bearer of incorrect information .  I stated above that the Plastyk kit had better jetpipes than the Frog but , whilst amending my stash stocksheet yesterday I realised that the kit to which I was referring is in fact by Chemetic .  I think they're the same kit , but cannot be 100% sure so , for the moment , my comments above refer solely to the Chemetic kit

THey are one and the same. I hated the way that it was perfectly flat accross the top of the fuselage - you could safely balance a pint on it! Plus the nasty grainy plastic - yuk! I felt slightly guilty about selling mine on. The Plastyk Lynx was so bad I didnt want to inflict it on a fellow modeller and it went straight in the bin.

Edited by Pat C

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I"m fairly sure that Airfix is interested in making a new mold of this in the future, because they've kitted almost every cold war British aircraft by now, with the Tornado, Hunter, Sea Vixen and Javelin in 1/72 still to go, I think. Maybe after the Bucc?

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If you do get a Frog, FAW9, then do something about the nose which is a bit blunt.  I fixed mine by adding a pointier tip and getting it blended in with a bit of sanding.  Alternatively,spend some money and buy the Freightdog replacement nose.

 

The Novo repop of the Frog kit is easier to find, and usually cheaper but is usually covered in flash.

 

Incidentally, I recently had both a Frog and  Novo kit of the FAW9 in my hands, and was puzzled by the fact that the Novo kit weighed nearly 50% more - guess its something they put in the plastic, it was too much to be accounted for by all that flash.

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On 4/18/2019 at 3:25 PM, Supertom said:

because they've kitted almost every cold war British aircraft by now, with the Tornado, Hunter, Sea Vixen and Javelin in 1/72 still to go, I think.

But have there been examples until today, when Airfix rescale its models from 48th to 72th?  No, I do not mind rescale Javelin from 48th to 72th!  But there was no precedent from Airfix?

 

B.R.

Serge

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On 4/15/2019 at 11:15 PM, rs2man said:

71Chally is quite correct - the 1/72 Airfix FAW9 is too narrow at the rear end because they just provided a new rear end to the existing T3 fuselage . 

The only way to build a nicely detailed and accurate OOB Javelin in 1/72 is to build the Heller T3 .  If you're prepared to do some conversion , Whirlybird Models do a couple of resin pieces to do the FAW1-6 or FAW7 rear fuselages , though you can only build an FAW1 , 4 or 5 with the early piece because the FAW2 and 6 have the shorter nose with the American radar . Should you want an accurate FAW9 you need the rear fuselage from the Frog kit , or preferably the much-maligned Plastyk kit . This latter is largely the Frog kit with rescribed panel lines , but the FAW9 jetpipes are MUCH better than the Frog ones . 

The Whirlybird jet pipe conversions are really only suitable for converting the Airfix FAW9 but to be honest the resin parts look like they were mastered from the Heller kit as they still have the sink marks of the original Heller kit. The T.3 cockpit and nose section was quite different from the fighter versions so adding the jet pipe conversion on it's own won't work. If you look at the position of the respective cockpits in relation to the air intakes as a reference point you'll see what I mean. I believe Maintrack used to do a conversion for the Heller T.3 that included a new front fuselage, canopy and jet pipes but it is long, long gone.

The current perceived wisdom with regards to getting an accurate FAW is to use the Airfix FAW9 with the Frog/Novo jet pipes (or the Whirlybird jet pipes) which are a much better (possibly even accurate) shape than the cobbled together Airfix originals.

I would really like to see Airfix scale down their 1/48 kit (same applies to the Sea Vixen) but as someone else has already said there is no precedent for them ever having done it before.

 

This is the Airfix 1/72 jet pipe placed on 1/72 scale plans from the Warpaint book

jav5_zps43c5a074-M.jpg

Jav2_zps2ce1f990-M.jpg

 

The Whirlybird conversion in place

jav16_zps367f64c9-L.jpg

 

Duncan B

 

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Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've been comparing the Airfix FAW.9 and the Plastyk FAW.9, specifically Dimension B as shown in post #4. On my Airfix sample, I measured 23.20 mm (with digital calipers) which equates to 1,670 mm. The Plastyk kit measures 24.80 mm which translates to 1,785 mm. That's closer to the value of 1,834 mm obtained from the Airfix 1:48 kit, but still a bit undersize. That's better, but I find the rest of the Plastyk kit to be rather unimpressive.

 

I really want to get a Javelin in my collection. If I build the Airfix kit as is, I would have an error of about 4.5%. Grafting on the Plastyk tail reduces the error to 2.6%. This assumes the 1,834 mm value from the Airfix 1:48 kit is correct. However, @Duncan B 's photo of the Airfix tail superimposed on a scale drawing shows an error of over 13% (measured where the exhaust cans meet the end of the fuselage - I simply measured the photo on my screen). So either the big Airfix kit is off (doubtful), or the drawing used in that photo is not scaled properly.

 

Does anyone know what the actual value is for Dimension B? @canberra kid, you always seem to have the answer for these kinds of questions. Someone help before I make a silly mistake!   :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

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Hello Bill,

 

at least the Airfix 1/48 scale Javelin matches nicely with photographs. I made some calculations and comparisons between the two Airfix (1/72 and 1/48) Frog Javelins. Model in the photo is Airfix 1/48 scale model. I have a selection of Javelin manuals but none of them give any measurements for the rear fuselage,

 

spacer.png

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

 

 

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Oops, pressed the "submit" button too soon...

 

as it was interesting to see how "much" measurements between two "identical" kits may vary. I got 1834 mm and you got 1670 mm. Unfortunately I can't find neither my old Frog Javelin nor my notes on the subject. It is possible to calculate the required measurements using a photo. Let's see what that gives.

 

Antti

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30 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Hello Bill,

 

at least the Airfix 1/48 scale Javelin matches nicely with photographs. I made some calculations and comparisons between the two Airfix (1/72 and 1/48) Frog Javelins. Model in the photo is Airfix 1/48 scale model. I have a selection of Javelin manuals but none of them give any measurements for the rear fuselage,

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

 

I think you're right about the Airfix 1:48 scale kit. I downloaded the Airfix stencil placement diagram for that kit, and imported it into Corel Draw. I scaled it so that the wingspan was set to 52 feet (a published dimension) at 1:72 scale, and Dimension B measured 25.5 mm on my printout. Your value of 1,834/72 = 25.47 mm, so they agree. Which they should, since the Airfix diagram probably came from the same drawings they used to engineer the kit. I really would like to know what the actual number is so I know for sure.

 

7 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Oops, pressed the "submit" button too soon...

 

as it was interesting to see how "much" measurements between two "identical" kits may vary. I got 1834 mm and you got 1670 mm. Unfortunately I can't find neither my old Frog Javelin nor my notes on the subject. It is possible to calculate the required measurements using a photo. Let's see what that gives.

 

Antti

 

Sorry, for the confusion, my value of 1,670 is for the Airfix 1:72 scale kit, not the big boy. You got 1,584 for the little Airfix kit. That's only a little more than a millimetre measuring the kit part (1670-1584)/72 = 1.19), so not unreasonable. I could be off a tad measuring with calipers on a tapered surface. But I got as close to the end of the part as I could.

 

Cheers,

Bill

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No need to apologise🙂 I meant just that one millimeter difference between our two Airfix 1/72 models as I think it's rather mutch.

 

Do you happen to know if LIDAR scanning was used during the kit designing? At least Airfix used it for the new 1/72 scale Phantom. I thought the Phantom's stencils guide looked very good and started to compare the measurements against factory data and the drawing is very accurate. Same doesn't go with the Hasegawa 1/48 scale FG.1...

 

I guess that you will get more accurate measurements using that stencils guide; it is impossible to reach that accuracy with photo interpreting (the quality of the print, exact distance between the focal plane and subject and so on).

 

Cheers,

Antti

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13 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Hello Bill,

 

at least the Airfix 1/48 scale Javelin matches nicely with photographs. I made some calculations and comparisons between the two Airfix (1/72 and 1/48) Frog Javelins. Model in the photo is Airfix 1/48 scale model. I have a selection of Javelin manuals but none of them give any measurements for the rear fuselage,

 

spacer.png

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

 

 

To be honest these calculations and pictures are pretty useless anyway as they don't give the actual dimension of A,B & C in  1/1 scale, so you can't determine which one of the two examples (if any) is the correct size anyway. All it tells you that the the two kits are different.  if you know what A,B,&C is on the full size jet   and divide the dimension by 72 and 48 it will give you what it should be in those scales! which is what we need to know.

 

Selwyn

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1 hour ago, Selwyn said:

To be honest these calculations and pictures are pretty useless anyway as they don't give the actual dimension of A,B & C in  1/1 scale, so you can't determine which one of the two examples (if any) is the correct size anyway. All it tells you that the the two kits are different.  if you know what A,B,&C is on the full size jet   and divide the dimension by 72 and 48 it will give you what it should be in those scales! which is what we need to know.

 

Which is exactly why I've stated that I want to know the dimensions from the actual aircraft several times in this thread.  Does anyone have access to one in a museum?

 

Cheers,

Bill

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It would be a hard thing to measure, let alone arrange with a museum.  I'm guessing using plumb lines hung off each fuselage side, marking the floor, and then measuring those marks would be the way forward?

 

I think Antti is going with the best option, in that the 48th Javelin is benchmark, it would be something if Airfix got it wrong. 

Not at all technical I know, but at the very least we know that kit looks right, so by using the dimensions from that we could make a 72 model that looks right.

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It is of course true what Selwyn said. Just like James mentioned above I was working with the idea that the new Airfix kit is the most accurate one available.

 

It would be interesting to visit a museum and take measurements using plumb lines. I think it is the best way to get reliable readings. How difficult it would be to arrange I can't tell; here in Finland such activities are usually a strict "no-no" but on the other hand it depends to whom you are talking to. And if you get a permit you should take all possible readings; after all it might be another area in the kit that is inaccurate. Javelin is difficult one to work with as it sits nose high on the ground.

 

Cheers,

Antti

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19 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I've been comparing the Airfix FAW.9 and the Plastyk FAW.9, specifically Dimension B as shown in post #4. On my Airfix sample, I measured 23.20 mm (with digital calipers) which equates to 1,670 mm. The Plastyk kit measures 24.80 mm which translates to 1,785 mm. That's closer to the value of 1,834 mm obtained from the Airfix 1:48 kit, but still a bit undersize. That's better, but I find the rest of the Plastyk kit to be rather unimpressive.

 

I really want to get a Javelin in my collection. If I build the Airfix kit as is, I would have an error of about 4.5%. Grafting on the Plastyk tail reduces the error to 2.6%. This assumes the 1,834 mm value from the Airfix 1:48 kit is correct. However, @Duncan B 's photo of the Airfix tail superimposed on a scale drawing shows an error of over 13% (measured where the exhaust cans meet the end of the fuselage - I simply measured the photo on my screen). So either the big Airfix kit is off (doubtful), or the drawing used in that photo is not scaled properly.

 

Does anyone know what the actual value is for Dimension B? @canberra kid, you always seem to have the answer for these kinds of questions. Someone help before I make a silly mistake!   :)

 

Cheers,

Bill

Very sorry Bill, but I don't have too much on the Javelin, most of what I have are mainly the Pilots notes, I could do with some AP's!

 

John

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