Matchbox Morris C.8, 17pdr gun, jeep set colours

[Troy Smith]

I'm quite taken by the options of the 8 Corps, 11th Armoured Brigade decals,  

The Morris C.8 is L4568056, the Jeep is M5308219,  not found any photos, 

this looks similar to the painting instructions? 

 

from https://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=269748&page=1

 

the jeep is also shown with the disruptive pattern? 

Basically are the instructions OK for pattern, and what colours?  

I would have presumed the jeep would have stayed US Olive drab? 

Morris C8, still S.C.C.2 brown with S.C.C. 14 Black? 

Quote

November 1941 -  A.C.I. 1559 is cancelled by A.C.I. 2202.  With M.T.P. 20 still specified all top horizontal surfaces are to be S.C.C. 1A or  if unavailable S.C.C.  14 (black).   S.C.C. 2 to be used to restore faded tilts.  Photographs and film show this in use with M.T.P. 20 bands.  They also show M.T.P.46/ 4A pattern overlaying a sharp straight line between a dark top and medium sides.  New tilts and hoods were now manufactured from canvas dyed to a near match for  S.C.C. 2.

 

August 1944 -   A.C.I. 1100 – Tilts to be dyed S.C.C. 15 Olive Drab rather than  S.C.C. 2.    Bituminous Emulsion S.C.C. 7 (green) may be used on tents, penthouses and hoods where S.C.C. 15 was not available.

 

Thank you

 

[John Tapsell]

You haven't stated what time period you are looking at (I'm guessing post-D-Day in NW Europe?)

 

The photo you've posted looks much earlier than that and a different camouflage pattern. The kit instructions appear to be a passable stab at a late-war camouflage pattern.

 

The C8 could be in SCC2 or it could be SCC 15 - either would be appropriate for a British vehicle  in NW Europe after D-Day. 'B' Vehicles were not always repainted after the orders came out to repaint vehicles in SCC 15 and lingered on in SCC2 even as late as May 1945 (although probably in ever-decreasing numbers). 

 

The disruptive colour could be black, but for modelling purposes, I would suggest a Nato Black which isn't a pure black. The disruptive colour was not applied to a specific pattern but was expected to follow basic guidelines and be applied in certain areas of the vehicle, so you have some latitude when applying it.

 

The Jeep was probably left in US Olive Drab, but SCC 15 was a very close match (not identical). Any disruptive painting would have been of similar style to the C8

 

Vehicles in the same unit could easily have different base colours

 

One last point - it's 11th Armoured Division, not Brigade. A British Armoured Division in 1944/45 had an organic Royal Artillery support 'brigade', consisting of two field artillery regts, an AT Regt and a Light AA Regt - in the case of 11th Armd Div, the AT Regt was 75 AT Regt Royal Artillery and carried a Blue/Red Arm of Service marking of marked with '77' (as per the kit instructions). The Regt would have had two towed Batteries, each with 12 17-Pdr AT guns and two SP Batteries, each with 12 M10s (either unmodified M10s or M10 IIc with the 17 Pdr fitted, dependent on the unit).

 

The Jeep carries the markings of the Royal Army Service Corps (RASC) HQ for an armoured division (a red/green diagonally split Arm of Service square, with '80' on it). That means it has no direct relationship to the C8 but could easily have been seen operating in the same vicinity.

 

Regards,

John

 

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, John Tapsell said:

You haven't stated what time period you are looking at (I'm guessing post-D-Day in NW Europe?)

Sorry,  I was looking at the using the kit decals for 11th Armoured Division option,  stated as being Normandy June 1944 .

I have actually completed a  Hurricane model, and want to do some armour as well>

 

A club member sold me some kits cheap,  I just want to build them OOB (or finish them off, 3 were part done)  and not chase down new decals,  but would like to get colours right if possible,  as have mixed some SCC15, and have the makings for various other British colours, as I need to work on my painting skills, and when I was last doing armour, 79-81,  erm, British tanks were either 'green' or some desert camo...

So all the range of schemes now possible is fascinating, and I fancy having a go at them.

 

the 17 pdr,  I presume either SCC2 or SCC15?   

 

I like the idea of using the Matchbox base,  and doing the jeep in US OD with SCC14 disruptive,  the C8 in SSC2 with SCC14 or SCC1A ?  Would SCC1A still be viable?

 

,  I'll recheck the tilts cover options,  would you get a SCC15 tilt on an SCC2 vehicle?  

 

and the 17 pdr in SCC15? 

 

Sound believable?   If nothing else would make an interesting 'essay'  on British Army colours

 

cheers

T

[sandsmodels]

as far as i can tell the morris tractor was not that common as a gun tractor for the 17pdr, the para's had 2 at arnhem and they were all converted 2pdr tractors.

matchbox did make an odd choice for it.

not many pics of them about towing 17pdrs, most were crusaders, half tracks, albin ft15n, morris quads or in italy, gmc 6x6's.

please let me know if you know of any non para pics towing a 17pdr.

tia.

[EwenS]

...... the AT Regt was 75 AT Regt Royal Artillery and carried a Blue/Red Arm of Service marking of marked with '77' (as per the kit instructions). The Regt would have had two towed Batteries, each with 12 17-Pdr AT guns and two SP Batteries, each with 12 M10s (either unmodified M10s or M10 IIc with the 17 Pdr fitted, dependent on the unit).

 

From 21st AG vehicle returns the M10s were 17pdr versions from at least the beginning of 1945 and probably some time before as the Armd Div units seem to heve been given priority in receiving these

[Mike Starmer]

The image shows an early three seater C8 2 pdr portee of 47th Inf. Div. the 'bow bells' emblem can just be discerned on the left mudguard.   It is finished according to MTP.20 , basic Khaki Green 3 with either Dark Green 4 or Dark Tarmac 4 stripes.  This is a 1940-42 scheme.  The kit model is the later four seater finished according to MTP.46/4A scheme.   The kit diagram is not quite right in layout.  All of the surfaces as seen from directly above  should be the darker colour.  These include the bonnet top and front mudguards too.  As for colours, you have some choices.  In 1943 the basic colour will be SCC.2 brown with SCC.1A dark brown patterning and tops.   The canvas sides were dyed brown, shades lighter than SCC.2.   Alternatively SCC.14 black could be the patterning after October 1943.  Either scheme would have been used in France during 1944.  If the vehicle were a repaint, then SCC.15 Olive Drab basic but you could still have the canvas areas brown as they were earlier or overpainted with bituminious emulsion SCC.15 slightly lighter than the paint and you can still have  black patterning as before.  Stars were only applied from about March 1944.  The 17pdr could be either SCC.2 or SCC.15 overall.  The jeeps were often left US Olive Drab No.9 with patterning of either SCC.1A or SCC.14 black.  But as before the whole top would be dark as would the entire bonnet and top mudguards.  Matchbox copied a restored vehicle for this, and they are not known as reliable references.