How good is Airfix at following product suggestions?

[bobsyouruncle]

I e-mailed them in 2011 when I heard that they would be re-releasing the EE Lightning F6 in 48th scale, asking them to consider correcting the kink on the spine topline.

I realised that they'd want to maximise the profit from the moulds, but wondered how much it would have cost to modify one part. 

I got a reply saying that it would be too late to change anything (which I thought was a shame, as they released the 72nd scale one with a better topline).

[lasermonkey]

On 4/14/2019 at 12:48 PM, Tbolt said:

I always thought the Javelin would have sold better in 1/72nd scale, I don't know how well the 1/48th scale kit did.

I think I remember reading that the 1/48 Javelin hasn't sold particularly well. It's a big model (the Javelin occupies a lot of space for its size) and had a commensurately high price. I suspect that may have put off a few buyers who wanted a decent Javelin in any scale. Personally, I don't do 1/48 ever, but if they were to do a 1/72 Javelin at the same price as their new Phantoms, I most certainly would get hold of a few. Likewise with the Sea Vixen.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Tbolt]

3 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

I think I remember reading that the 1/48 Javelin hasn't sold particularly well. It's a big model (the Javelin occupies a lot of space for its size) and had a commensurately high price. I suspect that may have put off a few buyers who wanted a decent Javelin in any scale. Personally, I don't do 1/48 ever, but if they were to do a 1/72 Javelin at the same price as their new Phantoms, I most certainly would get hold of a few. Likewise with the Sea Vixen.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

I build in 1/48th scale but only smaller aircraft and everything else in 1/72nd. I did buy the Sea Vixen but at least I can fold the wings on that and it won't take up too much room, the the Javelin is too big for me, perfect in 1/72nd though.

[Denford]

7 hours ago, bobsyouruncle said:

I e-mailed them in 2011 when I heard that they would be re-releasing the EE Lightning F6 in 48th scale, asking them to consider correcting the kink on the spine topline.

I realised that they'd want to maximise the profit from the moulds, but wondered how much it would have cost to modify one part. 

I got a reply saying that it would be too late to change anything (which I thought was a shame, as they released the 72nd scale one with a better topline).

Well done Airfix: at least you got a reply!  Can anyone think of any other model company who might also have replied?

[Julien]

1 hour ago, Denford said:

Well done Airfix: at least you got a reply!  Can anyone think of any other model company who might also have replied?

Lots of the newer companies will rely as they value feedback, some of the more established ones dont seem to.

[Julien]

On 14/04/2019 at 12:42, fightersweep said:

@RichG

 

Interesting points Rich, particularly the mention of pre-release threads and opinions on new subjects. The release of the Airfix 1/24 Mosquito and Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire IX came about the same time, remembering the huge boxes that arrived in the warehouse one day. Previously, I had read many threads stating that nobody really bought Airfix 1/24 kits, and that the Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire was the uberkit that would outsell all...or opinions to that effect. I remember the figures clearly. In the first two months, we sold 137 Airfix Mosquitoes and 48 Tamiya Spitfire IXs. Go figure as our American friends often say!

 

Steve

Airfix did 3 productions runs of the Mossie and sold them all. I have seen but a handful built at shows, so either they are all acting as loft insulation or its not your traditional forum member/show attender building them.

 

At the end of the day asking for suggestions is good but they will only make what they think the can sell.

[Ratch]

I'd say its odds on that every kit Airfix issues has been requested by someone.

[Julien]

22 hours ago, Harold55 said:

This is a mystery to me also, particularly when you consider they are all done with CAD now and the substantial cost of that initial design.  Stepping up or down a scale even if it means adding or subtracting detail/parts to match the level appropriate for the scale would seem to me a no brainier.   This would also apply to rendering close versions in the same scale.  Some manufactures are very good at this while others just seem to forget they have this opportunity available (both in the original design and after the fact).

Its not so easy as just using the same CAD. One of the Airfix CAD engineers explained this when we went on a club visit there. The basic data is the same but that it. 

[Andre B]

Has Italeri ever made an reply? Or do they just speak only Italian?

 

Italeri is the strangest company as they produce kits that looks fine but there is always an hitch somewhere. It seems that they newer tries to build what they start to produce. They if someone have quality issues...

 

I think the same thing can be said about Revell. But not so bad as when it comes to Italeri.

 

Just compare the Italeri P-51D and Revell P-51B with the Airfix P-51D (1/72scale). Airfix made an kit that can be built. What Italeri and Revell did with their canopy's I would newer understand...

 

I think Airfix listened, understod and saw that it was a market for an new P-51D. Just wonder when someone finds out that it also is an market for an new P-51B as well...

 

Cheers / André

[Work In Progress]

To Julien's point: 

Yes, if you look at something like the Defiant or Blenheim every single part is different (in ways other than scale) comparing the 1/72 and 1/48 kits. A 1/72 kit scaled up to 1/48 would be slammed as toy-like by today's audience, and a properly detailed 1/48 kit if literally scaled down to 1/72 would run into all kinds of moulding difficulties. The flow of molten plastic down a mould is not something that scales.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Work In Progress

[bobsyouruncle]

18 hours ago, Denford said:

Well done Airfix: at least you got a reply!

That's what I thought. They've been very good with me, especially with the after sales service, what with sending out replacement decal sheets and the like. 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

13 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

To Julien's point: 

Yes, if you look at something like the Defiant or Blenheim every single part is different (in ways other than scale) comparing the 1/72 and 1/48 kits. A 1/72 kit scaled up to 1/48 would be slammed as toy-like by today's audience, and a properly detailed 1/48 kit if literally scaled down to 1/72 would run into all kinds of moulding difficulties. The flow of molten plastic down a mould is not something that scales.

 

Indeed. All that is convertible is the research. The radii in the corners of parts must be changed one by one. Trailing edges need to be reworked and thinned on larger scales or thickened for smaller scales.

 

It is absolutely not a case of clicking a "RESIZE" button and you're almost ready to send a file off to the machine shop.

 

As far as paying a 3D designer goes - you get to pay them all over again. The 3D model is useless until it has been pretty much entirely reworked. There is scarcely a surface or object within the 3D model which does not need to be revisited, reworked and refitted against its neighbouring shapes and pieces. That's without considering the non-scalability of detail or molten plastic's flow properties.

 

The reason for 3D modelling really is to be able to check accuracy of shape and model the parts fit before ever cutting metal, and to allow direct translation to computer aided manufacturing of the tools. It doesn't save time or money at the design phase - you just have more confidence that the bits will fit later.

 

I see these rescaling requests all the time. People seem to assume it's a modest effort to rescale, but they are actually asking for the entire investment all over again save for the initial day trip out to a museum to laser scan and photograph a real one - probably less than 1% of the total development cost.

[Rob G]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:59 AM, Denford said:

Well done Airfix: at least you got a reply!  Can anyone think of any other model company who might also have replied?

 

Revell Germany. I suggested a reissue of their BAe 146 kit, as eBay prices on it are insane, and they replied with a polite "Nein".

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I've said elsewhere before on discussions with a "wishlist" quality to them...

 

There are companies out there who will CAD up and tool whatever you want, and even pop the plastic for you. If you're really convinced your must have / will sell thousands / desperately needed in the market subject matter and scale will be a success, then all you need to do is remortgage your house for 3 years and give most of the money to one of these businesses. Hey presto - you're now in the injection moulded kit business entering the market with a kit everyone desperately wants and will be climbing over each other to hand you their money. You'll repay your mortgage within a couple of years of the kit launch providing it's as desperately needed as you think it is. If that seems like a good idea, drop me a PM and I'll put you in touch with companies who will do the donkey work for you. If it doesn't seem like a good idea, then you probably now understand why other companies aren't already doing it.

[Albeback52]

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 12:42 PM, lasermonkey said:

I think I remember reading that the 1/48 Javelin hasn't sold particularly well. It's a big model (the Javelin occupies a lot of space for its size) and had a commensurately high price. I suspect that may have put off a few buyers who wanted a decent Javelin in any scale. Personally, I don't do 1/48 ever, but if they were to do a 1/72 Javelin at the same price as their new Phantoms, I most certainly would get hold of a few. Likewise with the Sea Vixen.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

You could be right Mark. I couldn't afford the 1/48 kit but, I did get one as a present when I retired from my job. Superb model but, I would, like you have preferred a smaller scale. Same for the Sea Vixen. I did actually buy a couple of Sea Vixens when first released but, at about £35, they were a lot cheaper than the Javelin!! I was also in full time employment so price was far less of an issue then than it is for me now! 

 

Allan

[Denford]

17 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

Indeed. All that is convertible is the research. The radii in the corners of parts must be changed one by one. Trailing edges need to be reworked and thinned on larger scales or thickened for smaller scales.

 

It is absolutely not a case of clicking a "RESIZE" button and you're almost ready to send a file off to the machine shop.

 

As far as paying a 3D designer goes - you get to pay them all over again. The 3D model is useless until it has been pretty much entirely reworked. There is scarcely a surface or object within the 3D model which does not need to be revisited, reworked and refitted against its neighbouring shapes and pieces. That's without considering the non-scalability of detail or molten plastic's flow properties.

 

The reason for 3D modelling really is to be able to check accuracy of shape and model the parts fit before ever cutting metal, and to allow direct translation to computer aided manufacturing of the tools. It doesn't save time or money at the design phase - you just have more confidence that the bits will fit later.

 

I see these rescaling requests all the time. People seem to assume it's a modest effort to rescale, but they are actually asking for the entire investment all over again save for the initial day trip out to a museum to laser scan and photograph a real one - probably less than 1% of the total development cost.

And the instructions have to be re-done from scratch.

[HMSLion]

I'd buy a 1/72 Javelin, and two 1/72 Sea Vixens.  Having said that, I think the upcoming Spitfire XIV will sell quite well.

 

But what I notice is that a lot of the online wish lists often feature kits that would be enormous when built.  I'm a firm believer in the Rule of 225 (or 1600, in Metric).  An assembled model must fit into a rectangle of 225 square inches (or 1600 square cm).  15x15.  It means that 1/48 is good for Second World War single-engine aircraft and most twins...for a 4-engine bomber, it's really not a good scale (though you might use it for consistency).  Jets after 1960 do well in 1/72...in 1/48, they are just too large.  I've seen a P-51 Mustang parked next to an F-18B Hornet, and the Mustang is about half the size in every dimension.

 

A model has to be scaled realistically.

 

I'll add that it pays to go where the competitors aren't.  Do the kits the other companies don't do.  No, Company A's Me-109 doesn't make money for Company B, but Company B's Me-109 loses money unless it sells well.  And the 109 market is pretty saturated.

[John Thompson]

1 hour ago, HMSLion said:

I'll add that it pays to go where the competitors aren't.  Do the kits the other companies don't do.  No, Company A's Me-109 doesn't make money for Company B, but Company B's Me-109 loses money unless it sells well.  And the 109 market is pretty saturated.

 

That's always been my belief, which flies in the face of the conventional wisdom frequently promoted on these forums. I'd like to see proof that every new 109 kit really makes back a profit for its producer. It seems to me that the Me-109 pie is only so big; the question is, is one tenth of that pie (considering how many competing kits there must be) worth more than all of the (let's say) Yak-9 pie?

 

John

[Ratch]

So all you have to do is pick a subject that no-one else has done to turn a profit - I'm afraid you guys just don't understand the business.

[John Thompson]

Reread my post and think about it - I never said that at all! Save the condescension, please.

 

John

[HMSLion]

5 hours ago, Ratch said:

So all you have to do is pick a subject that no-one else has done to turn a profit - I'm afraid you guys just don't understand the business.

No, you have to pick a subject that nobody else has done and will sell enough kits to turn a net profit.  Or a subject that has been done, but which you can do sufficiently better to warrant tossing the old kits and buying yours.  Kindly note that the Chinese makers have been doing truckloads of prototype and low-production AFVs.  

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

With aircraft kits, I believe there is rather more to it than even that. One must consider the numbers of originals built, how widely used they were and how many options for markings/colour schemes are available.

 

Someone asked for proof that 10% of a Bf109 pie is worth more than the whole of whatever else. I'm afraid you are absolutely not entitled to see that proof - that is entirely the business of the companies.

 

Believe it or not, many companies do talk. There are differences in the warmth of the relationships of course but most of the people in senior positions know one another. Either they're all stupid but somehow still in business despite that, or they do infact know what they're doing.

 

The thing about Mustangs and Bf109s is that even the most vociferous modeller will never run out of marking options for one, thus the kit can be resold time and time and time again to the same individual. The types are very famous, hugely popular and hence have tremendous appeal.

 

Choose a Supermarine Scimitar on the other hand - you will sell one, maybe two to a real enthusiast. Once you've seen one you've seen them all. Furthermore the chances of a casual modeller picking one up are much reduced because they've never even heard of a Scimitar, but it's really not hard to convince oneself to have a go at a Mustang or a Messerschmitt.

 

As above though. If you genuinely think you know better, remortgage your house and drop me a line when you have a 6-figure budget to invest. I'll hook you up. You'll either prove yourself to be right or wrong within 3 years.

[Tbolt]

5 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

As above though. If you genuinely think you know better, remortgage your house and drop me a line when you have a 6-figure budget to invest. I'll hook you up. You'll either prove yourself to be right or wrong within 3 years.

Of course knowing better and wanting to do something about it are two different things.

 

I know I could get a job earning more money than I do now but I enjoy what I do. I wouldn't enjoy running a model company, it's  a hobby for me I don't want to work in the industry, it doesn't stop me having an opinion, though I don't profess to know what would make money ( well I know some kits that could sell well but they are popular types and if someone like Tamiya bought out the same kit at the same time sales could be poor ).

 

Let's be thankful that we are in a great age for this hobby as there are plenty of smaller model companies producing rarer types and filling in the gaps.

[IanHx]

18 hours ago, John Thompson said:

... all of the (let's say) Yak-9 pie?

 

Think it needs a better moniker... can't see anyone wanting a piece of  yak pie .... 

[Tbolt]

27 minutes ago, IanHx said:

Think it needs a better moniker... can't see anyone wanting a piece of  yak pie .... 

Crunchy