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Beazer

P-40B Exhaust

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I’m looking at entering the P-40 group build and am getting some aftermRket parts ready.

 

I have the Airfix Tomahawk kit and plan on doing the RAF’s 112 squadron plane issued from the kits decals.

I’m stumped from looking at many and I mean many resources, which has led me to no conclusion.  Does the exhaust on which the kit is modeled after supposed to be a fishtail exhaust or is it the original tube exhaust.

 

I have found the squadmates to be fishtail exhaust but have not found any conclusive proof to the rest, in fact they all seem to be the tubular style.  Is it an upgrade or was it shipped like that to the squadron?  

 

https://www.scalespot.com/onthebench/p40bronco/image022.jpg

this indicates the fishtail and the boots removed.  Did it originally have boots and the tubular exhaust(makes sense)?

 

i was hoping to model the same style as depicted in this photo but am not sure if the Hasegawa exhausts would fit and then there is the trouble of finding the landing gear without the boots.

 

just curious to your opinions and a general consensus of what should b correct.

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If that can be of any help, the fishtail exhaust are longer and wider than the tubular ones

 

fbau9WF.jpg

 

onlW4CJ.jpg

 

and the few pictures I have seen of early P-40s of Squadron 112 have the tubular ones

 

N5kDpBD.jpg

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Some 112 Sqd. Tomahawks:

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.167210870.9906272

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.142689021.9906272

 

large_000000.jpg?_ga=2.176302061.9906272

 

 

Chris

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It definitely seems like before they took off the boots they had the tubular exhaust.

 

Was looking at using the Hasegawa fishtail exhaust but not sure if it would fit into the Airfix Kit.

 

may need to experiment...

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Posted (edited)

Beazer

 

Maybe this will help you. The Tomahawk IIb as shipped to the Desert were all equipped with the Pot type exhausts, the Fish-tailed Exhausts were fitted in the UK (one of the many mods that didn't make it to the Desert Tomahawks) to Army co-op units, I believe this mod was carried out at Cunliffe Owen ltd. The only Desert fishtailed Exhausts on a Tomahawk were from a few Tomahawk I and IIa, that made it to the desert later in their lives, having been sent from the UK after their usefulness had expired there.

 

AK578 as shown in the decals provided are "in error", as AK578 was actually a Kittyhawk I not a Tomahawk IIB as shown in the decal sheet so I would really question the accuracy, added on top of that I've never seen a Tomahawk IIb with Fish-tailed exhausts in any of my research.

 

Regards

 

Buz

Edited by Buz

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Thank you very much for sharing that tidbit of knowledge.  I’d be stuck on the fence all day trying to decide which direction to go.

 

So now that brings up another question.  Is the Airfix kits decals for a Kittyhawk as well since it’s from the same time period and squadron?  May force me to rethink my plans.

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Posted (edited)

Beazer

 

Not knowing which kit you are working on, I've taken a look at the Tomahawk kits that Airfix have. 

 

1/72nd Scale - Airfix starter Kit A55101 - shows Pilot Officer Neville Duke GA-F either AK402 or AN337 both Tomahawk IIb's (although the Spinner should be Red not black) date Nov 1941. MS/DE/LMB

1/72nd Scale - Airfix Kit A01003A - Shows AK490 in Dupont DE/DG/SG one of 4 aircraft used by 73SQN in the Middle East (before the MS/DE/LMB came about).

 

1/48th Scale - Airfix Kit A05133 - Shows two finishes -  Tomahawk IIa AH893 RM-D of 26SQN in Dupont DG/DE/SG delivery scheme with Port Black wing (aircraft lost in an accident after the engine seized - Aircraft also flown on operations over Europe on 9 occasions, also fitted with a Camera in rear baggage area) and Tomahawk IIb AK457 GA-O of 112SQN middle East in MS/DE/LMB - Aircraft was with 112SQN Sep 1941 until shot down when piloted by Sgt W.E.Houston 402473 RNZAF. (Aircraft took off as part of formation of 8 aircraft with 3 RAAF.   The formation ran into a large enemy formation over Tmimi and a general dogfight occurred.    During this dogfight this aircraft was shot down by a Bf109).

 

The Wing guns should also be .30 cal not .303 but no idea which Airfix kits have (I have some in the shed but really don't feel like wrestling the redbacks to find out what they are).

 

So Airfix seems to have it right apart from the spinner colour on the starter kit. For the record 112SQN did not get the Kittyhawk until Jan 1942.

 

Buz

Edited by Buz

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1 hour ago, Buz said:

The Wing guns should also be .30 cal not .303 but no idea which Airfix kits have (I have some in the shed but really don't feel like wrestling the redbacks to find out what they are).

 

Good luck to anyone who can discern the difference in 1/72 between one belt-fed lightweight Browning M1919 derivative chambered in 30-06 and another, chambered in .303 British.

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Posted (edited)

Work

 

You would imagine it would be hard however for the .303 on the Tomahawk I and UK based Tomahawk IIb its actually quite noticeable even in 1/72 scale, as the cooling fins make the barrel wider than the barrel sleeve (just call me a purist). If being made in 1/48th even more so. Inboard weapon is a .303 outboard is .30 cal, you can see the sleeve and barrel end are different between the two models (Please note this is for UK based Tomahawk IIb's only).

 

 

32678697197_d68f7d9334_o_d.jpg

 

Buz

 

 

Edited by Buz

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Posted (edited)

Consider me convinced. Certainly in 1/48th and larger that would be likely to bother me. While in 1/72 I don't think I would consider it a feat worth attempting in injection-moulded polystyrene, in this new era of aftermarket brass and 3D printing I can see that it would be a live issue for many people.

 

And: wow. That's a great picture for two purposes: modelling and illustrating the complete insanity of military procurement. What on earth were they thinking, mixing the two in the same wing?

 

Looking at other people's builds of the 1/72 Airfix kit, what you get in that is pairs of US-standard ".30", i.e. 30-06 guns.  For example...

 

Edited by Work In Progress

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Posted (edited)

Work

 

The aircraft were delivered with 4 x US-standard ".30" however one on each wing (I've seen examples of both the inboard and Outboard being changed) was removed and replaced with a .303, so we can't blame the complete insanity of military procurement (for once). I bet the LOGO was real happy with this (not!)

 

The reason for the change, according to the docs I have seen, was that the .303 gave a greater access and choice of ammunition types over the .30cal. I think this is why we only see this change on UK based Tomahawk II's, and not Middle East ones (Tomahawk I had 4 x .303 anyhow).

 

Buz

Edited by Buz

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Intriguing. There was plenty of 30-06 being made in the usual selection of ball, semi-AP and tracer, but perhaps the supply to UK forces had a reduced choice at the time, perhaps due to the convoy situation, whereas native UK-manufactured .303 would be easy to get on a UK airfield in any type. For me that only makes it weirder that you don't change out all four, there being some significant ballistic differences. But: military logic. Anyway, happy times for the armourers 🙄

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I don't recall seeing anything like the fitting on the end of the inboard gun.  Could it be a fitting for a flash-hiding extension?

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Posted (edited)

@ Work

 

It also gave the Brits access to Incendiary, tracer etc, as well as Ball and Semi -AP and AP. Oh yes I bet the Armours loved this situation.........

 

@ Graham

This is a fairly normal configuration for a fixed Aircraft .303, unlike the Turret guns which often had flash suppressors on the front. Attached is examples of .303 recovered from a Spitfire wreck (source of the photo for the Spitfire https://www.christies.com/spitfire/interactive/index.html . However just for giggles I have seen a Tomahawk with a Flash suppressor as well (both tomahawks from my photo collection)........this is what I love about aircraft research and modellers hate....lol

 

47576272272_ba49f905ff_b.jpg

 

Example of a Tomahawk I with 4 x .303 in the wings (standard fit as aircraft not shipped with weapons (except .50 cals))

26_RMA_AH830 c

 

Example of Flash suppressor fitted to a Tomahawk II

IMG_0575

 

 

Buz

Edited by Buz

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On 16/04/2019 at 01:54, Buz said:

Beazer

 

Not knowing which kit you are working on, I've taken a look at the Tomahawk kits that Airfix have. 

 

1/72nd Scale - Airfix starter Kit A55101 - shows Pilot Officer Neville Duke GA-F either AK402 or AN337 both Tomahawk IIb's (although the Spinner should be Red not black) date Nov 1941. MS/DE/LMB

1/72nd Scale - Airfix Kit A01003A - Shows AK490 in Dupont DE/DG/SG one of 4 aircraft used by 73SQN in the Middle East (before the MS/DE/LMB came about).

 

1/48th Scale - Airfix Kit A05133 - Shows two finishes -  Tomahawk IIa AH893 RM-D of 26SQN in Dupont DG/DE/SG delivery scheme with Port Black wing (aircraft lost in an accident after the engine seized - Aircraft also flown on operations over Europe on 9 occasions, also fitted with a Camera in rear baggage area) and Tomahawk IIb AK457 GA-O of 112SQN middle East in MS/DE/LMB - Aircraft was with 112SQN Sep 1941 until shot down when piloted by Sgt W.E.Houston 402473 RNZAF. (Aircraft took off as part of formation of 8 aircraft with 3 RAAF.   The formation ran into a large enemy formation over Tmimi and a general dogfight occurred.    During this dogfight this aircraft was shot down by a Bf109).

 

The Wing guns should also be .30 cal not .303 but no idea which Airfix kits have (I have some in the shed but really don't feel like wrestling the redbacks to find out what they are).

 

So Airfix seems to have it right apart from the spinner colour on the starter kit. For the record 112SQN did not get the Kittyhawk until Jan 1942.

 

Buz

It was for the 1/48th Kit with the decals for the Middle East.

Good thing I held off on ordering the aftermarket.

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