Lockheed Twins (and a CONNIE ) Civvies

[rob Lyttle]

Ah.... Funny you should mention that 

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

 I was thinking 1/48 actually.  The Revell Ventura is looking pretty good and I don’t mind a little surgery,

Some info to follow..... 

[rob Lyttle]

The 1.48 PV1 Ventura is a boxful of fun okay. And for some reason I don't understand it's being sold off cheap, here in the UK at least. 

I got 2, and I set about one of them. 

If you imagine say a South American outfit buying a warsurplus airframe or two and doing a conversion, what would they make?? 

It wouldn't revert to being a Lodestar, but it'd be a good looking Lockheed of some kind! 

Many Ventura airframes were given a full makeover by Dee Howard in california but these were a huge refurbishment including basically a new fuselage. Some even had a nose wheel. 

Some planes had a simpler makeover and looking through images you'll find the odd one with that telltale ventral bulge sheeted over, and the fuselage tail end extension still there. 

With this kit you're starting here... 

My window line is fictional and takes inspiration straight from the Curtiss C46 and my TAB laser decals in 1.72 are just right for this in 1.48! 

So you can see where I'm going with this 

 

But in terms of making it into a straight up Lodestar L18, there's a fair bit of work to be done. I've been weighing it up for the second kit! 

It's a great box of stuff to get to work on, and the good news is that the wings are correct for the Lodestar.

It's that slight dogleg extension of the t. e. above the flaps that differs from the L14 Hudson wing. 

As you can imagine, I'm into the flaps already. 

I think you should get one and take a shot at it. 

My opinion is that if you can get the rear fuselage remodelled and the door and windows done, you are more or less there for a Lodestar.. And a lot of fun on the way! 

[rob Lyttle]

Here's some information and discussion on the Howard 500 conversion @DMCand associated info

 

[DMC]

10 hours ago, rob Lyttle said:

I think you should get one and take a shot at it.

 Thinking about it, Rob.  Regarding the Lodestar:  I knew a little about the Hudson the Ventura and Earhart’s Electra but nothing about the Lodestar.  I first read about it in E.K. Gann’s Fate is the Hunter, which I am now reading.   In chapter VIi,  Gann and a fellow pilot are delivering a brand new Lodestar to Rio de Janeiro and there is a near catastrophe.  Too lengthy to explain if you haven’t read the book.  Anyway,  my interest piqued, I Binged Few photos and then available kits and so on.  So I am, unbelievably, thinking about buying yet another kit just to have a look in the box, mind. Madness!

 

Both Macchis are stalled as I got careless when cleaning my old Badger 150 and managed to loose the tiny nozzle (probably eaten by the carpet monster) so can’t paint the M.39.  Waiting on a new airbrush now.  Also need a bit of styrene for the M.33.

So, idle hands being the devil’s workshop and all that.......

 

Anyway, thanks for the input and photos. Think I’ll just segue over to eBay and see what’s happening over there.

 

Don’t know if you’ve seen, or remember, this but here’s more info on the Hudso/Lodestars/Ventura conversion topic.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

 

 

[rob Lyttle]

I've got 2 Wright Cyclones in their cowlings, and fitted. 

There are no indications, lugs, notches or drawings, of how the engines are orientated and there is a little item like an oil scavenger pump or something detailed between 2 cylinders. 

A picture of a Cyclone 1820 in my Jane's WW2 book shows the engine with the item at the bottom of the crankcase, so that's what I've done! 

The fitting of the cowling to the nacelle is equally undefined and a considerable amount of eyeing up from all directions is required. 

This phone camera is really good at picking up little missing bits and flaws though. I can find it quite irritating at times.... 😬

[dad's lad]

Yes I'm easily confused and as I reach my golden years, the little grey cells are not as accommodating as they used to be; but having read this thread a few times, with all the to-ing and fro-ing, what please is the definitive answer regarding elevators on Hudson's, Venturas and other Lockheed twins? Single or split?

 

Clive the (constantly) confused. 

[rob Lyttle]

@dad's ladI know that feeling.....

 

This is what I've got, but I'm no expert. 

The Hudson and the L14 are the same airframe, and they feature the one-piece elevator right across the Tailplane. 

(This also applies to the little earlier L10 and L12 Electra.) 

Everything else after that -  the Lodestar /L18 and the Ventura has separate elevators and a fixed centre section. 

 

There's quite a bit of wrong information around, in books and reference material. 

Airfix got it totally wrong all those years ago which probably created a whole legacy of wrong information. 

The L14 and L18 can look quite similar in some photographs if you don't look carefully, and there is a LOAD OF wrong identification on the Internet images. 

 

All that confused stuff earlier was basically me, trying to get to grips with the situation and climbing up a steep learning curve 

Hope this helps, Clive 

[dad's lad]

7 hours ago, rob Lyttle said:

@dad's ladI know that feeling.....

 

This is what I've got, but I'm no expert. 

The Hudson and the L14 are the same airframe, and they feature the one-piece elevator right across the Tailplane. 

(This also applies to the little earlier L10 and L12 Electra.) 

Everything else after that -  the Lodestar /L18 and the Ventura has separate elevators and a fixed centre section. 

 

There's quite a bit of wrong information around, in books and reference material. 

Airfix got it totally wrong all those years ago which probably created a whole legacy of wrong information. 

The L14 and L18 can look quite similar in some photographs if you don't look carefully, and there is a LOAD OF wrong identification on the Internet images. 

 

All that confused stuff earlier was basically me, trying to get to grips with the situation and climbing up a steep learning curve 

Hope this helps, Clive 

Thanks Rob, so my Minicraft Venturas (Venturi?) and Revell/Italeri Hudsons are ok (setting aside any buildability issues) but trash the Airfix Hudson.

 

Clive.

[rob Lyttle]

Could be Venturae, especially if I could stick the a and the e together... 😊

 

The Airfix is a Labour of Love really, but it is fixable for old times sake! 

[dad's lad]

4 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

Could be Venturae, especially if I could stick the a and the e together... 😊

 

The Airfix is a Labour of Love really, but it is fixable for old times sake! 

Actually I have a set of vacformed transparencies for the Airfix so it might get built after all...

[rob Lyttle]

Working on the undercarriage and so far so good. 

But the little channel piece sitting on the wing has me stumped. 

It's basically the u/c door and it goes on the leg somehow. 

What are they trying to tell me....? 

 

Does the 3sided channel surround the leg? 

Or does the edge that the arrow connects to glue onto the leg front centred inside the 2 pins? 

Bearing in mind that the legs have a support strut coming off the side. 

I found this which suggests that it surrounds the leg but far enough forward for the diagonal leg to fit behind... 

The plane in the walkaround doesn't have ANY. 

Anyone solved this riddle?? 

[stevehnz]

This angle any help.  I know its a Lodestar but the U/C was the same as the Hudson afaik.

If for any reason you wanted to save that photo, you'll need to put .jpg after it for it to save properly, least, that's what I found.

Steve.

Edited August 1, 2019 by stevehnz

[bigbadbadge]

Hi Rob

Hope you are well, great work on all the models fella, very inspiring indeed. The piccie you showed on the previous page of the Hudson with the Flack damage to the wing and flap, was there any info re that machine as it looks to be a single colour and was wondering if it could be an illusive image of a PRU machine, although the last window looks the same size as the others so possibly not ?

 

Keep up the good work

All the best

Chris

[rob Lyttle]

32 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said:

Hudson with the Flack damage to the wing and flap,

No idea on that, Chris. Didn't even know there was a PRU plane. 

Does look one colour though. 

 

I've fitted the leg pieces, by the process of adding a bit of stretched sprue at 1mm inside the channel, sticking out the top. 

And a hole drilled in the bottom of the nacelle in front of the leg position to receive it. 

Seems to be okay and looks like it's meant to be there, so I'll stick with that 

 

Great picture, Steve. What I've done looks like it tallies with that.... 

..... and on the engines, there is that little pump type thing I was talking about between 2 cylinders, and it's Bottom Dead Centre....! 

Cool 😎

[bigbadbadge]

 

26 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

idea on that, Chris. Didn't even know there was a PRU plane. 

Does look one colour though. 

No worries thanks Rob, yes there is a PRU blue machine , the serial number was over painted and some drawings seem to show an enlarged rear most window for the camera, but I have an image of the camera inside one where the window is not enlarged so will go with that.  The other teaser is the single code letter  so will have to try some further searches,  I can never turn up much when looking on t'internet.

Thanks for replying fella. 

All the best

Chris

[rob Lyttle]

1 hour ago, bigbadbadge said:

seem to show an enlarged rear most window for the camera, 

Well, on the starboard side, the window one before last ie the 7th one back, is lined around to represent an emergency exit. 

It wouldn't be hard to remove it and even glaze with perspex. 

Could that be the source of the enlarged camera port?? 

A lot simpler and safer than taking a saw to the fuselage 

[bigbadbadge]

25 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said:

Well, on the starboard side, the window one before last ie the 7th one back, is lined around to represent an emergency exit. 

It wouldn't be hard to remove it and even glaze with perspex. 

Could that be the source of the enlarged camera port?? 

A lot simpler and safer than taking a saw to the fuselage 

Hi Rob

I am sure it is the rear most window on the port side, not sure about the Stbd side though. Will have to check that out.  It will be easy enough to enlarge a window, just wanted to make sure it needed it before I make any holes if you know what I mean!!!

Thanks Rob

All the best

Chris

[DMC]

This arrived today.  Still factory wrapped in a huge box.  No way to slip this one in the house undetected.  Looks pretty good but I’ll keep it wrapped for the time being.  A fair price also.

 

And you’re to blame, Rob 

 

Dennis

 

 

[rob Lyttle]

I didn't do nuthin.... 😇😎🤭

[rob Lyttle]

The engine type, the cowling, the intakes and exhaust system appearance are all highly varied on these planes. 

The kit includes an interesting sprue with many of the various options included, but no instructions of course - it just says not to use them. 

There's even a pair of P&W Twin Wasps on the tree, but unfortunately no cowlings to match them to. They will be included in the boxing for a Hudson Mk.IV and Mk.V

How this translates to the Civil L14 is probably well covered by the Lockheed Twins book. 

A load of P&W engined Hudsons went to Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and ended up being converted into civil use, by Adastra for example. 

So it's all a bit of a minefield.

 

 https://images.app.goo.gl/on9zSzYiqKG7LbEg7

 

If that link works it'll show a Hudson type with a Wright Cyclone and that bulged exhaust trunking along the outside of the nacelle. 

I've fitted the parts for this type. I like the look of it, and the alternative is a wee louvred wedge that just isn't going to look like anything. 

Intakes top and bottom are in many forms too. 

Flap arrangements are ongoing 

The little strips are bevelled to the same angle as the flap would make if it was still there. 

And then the 5 runners are glued straight on those. 

Each piece is made to represent how the thing looks with the flaps closed up. It includes the channel on the flap itself. 

Apart from a bit of scratching away, I'm going to ignore this detail.....! 

The flaps themselves are coming along 

[rob Lyttle]

Here's the u/c door pieces fitted to the legs, foiled before fixing. 

Also the underneath intakes, and I cut a square of foil away for each of those, and used poly glue to fix. Then they were foiled in place. 

I had to do a rebuild on the tail wheel. 

It's very frail and vulnerable. 

I drilled at 1mm into the yoke and into the wheel. 

Then I broke a piece of one of my cheap and useless 1mm drill bits and glued it in as a steel u/c leg. 

Then a little piece of my smaller Ali tube got reamed to take the steel leg, and fitted into the fuselage tail. 

Finally the leg was glued in the tube, given a bit of turn and held at what looked like the correct length. 

Over - engineering perhaps, but I'll be surprised if I have any further trouble with it! 

That blackness on the foil.... I just noticed it. I guess it's the CA glue reaction. 

Hmmmm, that's going to come in handy one day.... 😉

[DMC]

“foiled before fixing”.

 

You have a deft hand with that foil, Rob.  I tried a piece on a mule wing and it didn’t want to go where I wanted it to.  Very very stick and not at all easy to work with.   Kudos.

 

Re the Revell Ventura I just bought.  A couple of reviews mention that the props are wrong for a Ventura but correct for a Lodestar.  Pleased to hear that.  However, the engines look wrong for a Lodestars with those fat magnetos above the nose casing.

 

Looking for photos of a Lodestar’s raised stab from astern.  Any help?

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by DMC
Too many “hands”

[rob Lyttle]

@DMC

Definitely NOT a common viewpoint for a Lodestar, is it?! 

Airliners have this. 

https://images.app.goo.gl/9VEoTVxGuW1byycv7

 

Have a look at this though. 

Check the window Spacing and the one-piece elevator etc, and look at the caption...... 

I'm not a Lockheed boffin by any means, but come on. Am I missing something?? 

 

 

Lockheed Lodestar, RCAF (Serial No. FK771), groundloop crash, Rockcliffe, Ontario, 7 Sep 1944. 

 

Crash report sites may be your best option for finding odd views that aren't the standard side portrait style of picture 

[rob Lyttle]

15 hours ago, DMC said:

a deft hand with that foil,

I suppose I've learnt a few methods of working with the stuff over time. 

It still catches me out on a regular basis. 

 

Something like that little channel piece, your best method is to cut a piece oversize and peel it back so it's glue side up, and place the middle of the part in the middle of the foil. Then you can work outward on to the sides. And then trim the surplus around the edges 

In general....... Don't go cutting the foil precisely to size and then have to position it exactly. 

This stuff is way less than cheap per square ft. of foil, or per plane .

So give yourself some leeway and spare material to hold, then trim when you get it on the model / part. 

[DMC]

10 hours ago, rob Lyttle said:

Have a look at this though

I’m looking but this “Lodestar” doesn’t seem to have that raised horizontal stabiliser that is the most recognisable feature of the type.  (For me anyway.) Maybe it’s just the angle.  Some Lodestars appear to have a fuselage extension that extends past the stabiliser and some don’t.  Some good photos on oldprops.ukhome.net.  All a little confusing (scratching head).

 

Anyway, time enough, I hope, to get it sorted.  

 

Dennis