Backdating a Sunderland V?

[Scott Hemsley]

Now that Special Hobby's Sunderland V is a reality, I can turn my attention to a project I've had in mind for some time.  I want to builds a (late) Sunderland Mk.iiI  and after following SH's initial announcement, CAD images and sprue shots, it was clear that this Sunderland V kit was much closer than the Airfix Mk.III, as a starting point, to  the subject of my proposed build. Therefore, I've two questions to put to the Sunderland experts here that would go along way in determining if I should go with the new kit or stay with the older Airfix kit and what looks like could be a long drawn-out build...

 

i)   I know the Sunderland V engines (same as on the PBY, correct?) are much different from the Sunderland  Mk.III (Bristol-Pegasus XVIII), but can anyone furnish comparison photos of the cowlings./props  I can probably either rob some poor kit in the stash or get AM Pegasus, but can I just tweek the cowls or is there a major change between the two?  I'm aware of the small intake on the top 'lip' of the Sunderland V cowling.   OR.... would it be easier to drill out the Airfix cowls for the AM Pegasus and hope they can be made to fit the Special Hobby kit?

 

 ii)   Without extreme nit-picking, is there other external changes between the two versions that I should be aware of? One area that concerns me is the 'step.  Everything seen for the Sunderland V kit thus far has shown  the 'step' to be a separate piece. Does the 'step' on a Mk.III differ from a Mk.V, or would this possibly be only to facilitate tooling? 

 

Scott

Edited April 5, 2019 by Scott Hemsley

[Admiral Puff]

No doubt Alan Willoughby (LDS Modeller) will be along shortly with a much more detailed reply, but wouldn't you be better just getting the Italeri Mk III? It's not without its flaws, but at least it does have the Peggies rather than the P&W R-1830s that were in the Mk V. That will save you the conversion work which would otherwise be necessary.

 

The step isn't a problem, unless it doesn't fit the opening properly. It goes back, I believe, to when SH and Italeri were co-operating on producing different Sunderland variants. That scheme eventually fell over, but the separate step is simply to allow for the same hull parts to be used for both early (square step) and late (faired step) aircraft. Other differences are in detail - ASV aerial fittings, fixed nose guns and the like. Try to find a picture of the aircraft you want to model and be guided by that.

 

I'm sweating on the arrival of the SH kit, because I want to do a Sandringham (or two ...). They didn't come with Peggies!

[Stew Dapple]

Scott, is it something you need to do now? Because if I recall correctly from the sprue shots SH will be producing some other variants and they might well do a Mk.III straight out of the box if you wait on it...  

 

Cheers,

 

Stew (waiting on a Mk.I)

[LDSModeller]

5 hours ago, Scott Hemsley said:

Now that Special Hobby's Sunderland V is a reality, I can turn my attention to a project I've had in mind for some time.  I want to builds a (late) Sunderland Mk.iiI  and after following SH's initial announcement, CAD images and sprue shots, it was clear that this Sunderland V kit was much closer than the Airfix Mk.III, as a starting point, to  the subject of my proposed build. Therefore, I've two questions to put to the Sunderland experts here that would go along way in determining if I should go with the new kit or stay with the older Airfix kit and what looks like could be a long drawn-out build...

 

i)   I know the Sunderland V engines (same as on the PBY, correct?) are much different from the Sunderland  Mk.III (Bristol-Pegasus XVIII), but can anyone furnish comparison photos of the cowlings./props  I can probably either rob some poor kit in the stash or get AM Pegasus, but can I just tweek the cowls or is there a major change between the two?  I'm aware of the small intake on the top 'lip' of the Sunderland V cowling.   OR.... would it be easier to drill out the Airfix cowls for the AM Pegasus and hope they can be made to fit the Special Hobby kit?

 

 ii)   Without extreme nit-picking, is there other external changes between the two versions that I should be aware of? One area that concerns me is the 'step.  Everything seen for the Sunderland V kit thus far has shown  the 'step' to be a separate piece. Does the 'step' on a Mk.III differ from a Mk.V, or would this possibly be only to facilitate tooling? 

 

Scott

Hi Scott,

 

Building a Mk IIIa from the SH Sunderland shouldn't seem too difficult......

However, it's really subject to what SH put into the box?

 

The main difference for you building a Mk IIIa from a Mk V are the nacelles.

It would appear from sprue shots, SH have in mind a Mk III/IIIa - you can see what appears to be mountings for

Bristol Peggie XVIII's

SH Sunderland Nacelles

 

The Bristol Pegasus was mounted to an extension of the nacelle , so appears longer from

wing Leading edge as in this photo link of a Mk IIIa

Sunderland Mk III Engine mount

You can see in this photo how far the nacelle extends from Wing Leading edge

(Photo used for illustration purposes only)

 

The Mk V R-1830 engine, was mounted to the firewall which sat at the wing leading edge as in this photo

(Photo used for illustration purposes only)

The Mk V also had additional removable panels behind the cowling to access the engine bearers, as you

can see in this photo

 

The only issue if the Pegasus mounts are in the kit, will be the correct Propellers. Whether SH have them

in the kit? You could try Pavla Propellers.

The Engine Cowling ring for a Mk III/IIIa - don't know if there is one in the kit - Mk V ring has a wider mouth

 

To answer your query on the step, Mk III/IIIa/V are the same .

Only other external issues are to add in extra fuel tanks behind rear spar, leave off the beam gun hatches

just aft of wing trailing edge.

The main forward hatch provided by SH has the Mk V cut outs for crash axe and extinguisher. SH may include

a spare for Mk III? If not you will have to fill in the cutouts

Internally, you will need to leave out the GPI (Ground Position Indicator) Port side behind 1st pilots seat on flight deck,

as it was not (to my knowledge) used on Mk III.

 

Hope that helps answer your query(s)?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

[Sydhuey]

Some late III's/ IIIA's were fitted with beam hatches and .50 , so you would need to know the serial of the Mk III you want to build to know if it had beam hatches or not , most late III's/IIIA's with 10 and 461 Sqn had the beam hatches fitted in late 44.  Photo's of 10 Sqn III still with stickleback antennas ML856 "Y" show the beam hatch fitment in late 44. Let alone IIIA's with later radar with both Sqn's.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Sydhuey

[Scott Hemsley]

Wow, gentlemen … thanks for all your replies 

 

I should've been more clear, but the Sunderland I want to do is actually a Mk.IIIa … so using the Italeri Mk.III as a start point (as Admiral Puff wonders) would actually be more work incorporating the changes between a Mk.III and a Mk.IIIa.  It would be no different than using the Airfix kit as a start point, and make no mistake … I've seen some real inspirational online builds using that old kit.  I seem to recall that when it was first announced, presumably when it was intended as a Special Hobby/Italeri collaboration and the CAD images and initial pre-production sprue shots were revealed, the feeling was that it was to be a Mk.III/Mk.V release under both labels.  Having all the required parts for both on the sprue, made a Mk.IIIa an easy option.  The question now is, are those parts still included on the 'production 'sprues?  It wouldn't be the first time a company has left a lot of options as fodder for the parts box and didn't mention their existence in the instructions .If the sprues were tooled before the split between the partners, it's conceivable everything's still there rather than undergo the expense to alter the sprue layout/contents and if SH or Italeri decided to release a dedicated Mk.IIIa, it would then be a simple matter to alter the instructions … right?

 

I  have to single Alan out, though …  for the detailed post he put up.  Whether the parts required for a Mk.IIIa are still included on the Mk.V sprues, or not, his information - especially re the differences on the engines .. is very useful.

 

FWIW, the one I'm planning to do is actually covered on the Aviaeology sheet for RCAF Sunderland.  It's a Mk.IIIa from 423 Squadron (RCAF).  On Sept. 11/44, flown by F/OJ.N. Farren and crew, they made the last U-boat kill for the squadron.  The decal sheet depicts the aircraft (s/n ML825) with the codes "AB*D" , which is correct for that time period.  In '43, the squadron carried a "3" as a unit code, rather than "AB".

 

 

Again, thanks everyone for your input.

 

Scott

Edited April 5, 2019 by Scott Hemsley

[Admiral Puff]

The SH instructions (which include a parts map) are now available for download on the SH web site, so you may be able to garner some idea of what is and isn't available in the soon to be released kit (obviously VERY soon - it's available for pre-order) and decide whether the bits you want are still there.

[Scott Hemsley]

Thanks!, Admiral Puff!  

 

After checking the sprue layout out (an' I don't exactly consider myself a Sunderland expert). I can see it has many of the Mk.III options that I would require, but not others - notably the Pegasus option.  I'm not even sure that I can see any vacant space where any Pegasus engine parts may have been. 

 

What I do see, however, is a lot of 'X'd" parts on the sprue layout. There are a total of 4 upper fuselage sections .  I can identify the 'open waist' positions of the Mk.I, along with a 2nd similar one.   Not sure of the difference from the sketch alone.  There is also the same upper fuselage section that features the open fairing for the upper turret of a Mk.III as ell as the a section with the turret faired-over (used in the Mk.V assembly).  I also see parts scattered throughout the sprues that suggest the various turrets and armament used on the earlier Sunderland  (ie: nose and upper turret) … and yes, you do have the beam guns included for the Mk.V. . It does have two different sections for a 'step', though,    I assume the "X'd" one is for a Mk.I and the other one which is called for in the instructions ...  would also apply to a Mk.III..  Looking further, there's a very complete looking interior.  Judging by the number of assembly steps dedicated to the interior in the instructions … if it doesn't lend itself to a cut-away OOTB, it's a pretty good start for the detailers in the crowd.

 

Getting back to the 'do not use' items ...you do have the earlier ASW fuselage antenna and the weapons bay doors, have both the 2 and 3 porthole options . As I've said … everything but the Pegasus option.      Since this project's waited this long to get done, maybe I can wait a little while longer for a possible 'dedicated' Mk.IIIa release from SH - like Stew had suggested … or maybe I'll just cannibalize the "Pegasus engines/props" from one of my Airfix kits (somehow I ended up with 2.5 Sunderland kit in the stash) and re-work them as necessary to make them look a part of the SH tooling.

 

If you're planning on acquiring this kit, I recommend that you visit the Special Hobby home page and check out the downloadable instructions.  If you don't have the opportunity to inspect the kit at a LHS prior to buying it  checking out the instructions prior to ordering it, is the next best thing.

 

Scott

Edited April 6, 2019 by Scott Hemsley

[Sydhuey]

Well with you knowing the aircraft ML825, has twin gun nose turret , 4 x fixed nose guns , upper turret and Tail turret , no beam gun hatches and underwing radar fairings (these are available as aftermarket parts).

Looking at the Special Hobbies model I was surprised to show the Mk V with early war depth bombs (out of use by 1942) and not Depth Chargers, the sprue of the Italeri Sunderland III has late underwing radar fairings on the sprue so it looks like the IIIA is possible from the box , only thing missing is the moulding of the 4 x fixed nose guns and not sure if the twin gun nose turret is included.

[LDSModeller]

22 hours ago, Sydhuey said:

Some late III's/ IIIA's were fitted with beam hatches and .50 , so you would need to know the serial of the Mk III you want to build to know if it had beam hatches or not , most late III's/IIIA's with 10 and 461 Sqn had the beam hatches fitted in late 44.  Photo's of 10 Sqn III still with stickleback antennas ML856 "Y" show the beam hatch fitment in late 44. Let alone IIIA's with later radar with both Sqn's.

Hi Syd,

Your comments got me thinking, and I'd forgotten, but the Mk III Sunderland manual

does mention the beam hatches/.5 Cal MG's as amendments circa 1944 for late Mk III's

8 hours ago, Scott Hemsley said:

What I do see, however, is a lot of 'X'd" parts on the sprue layout. There are a total of 4 upper fuselage sections .  I can identify the 'open waist' positions of the Mk.I, along with a 2nd similar one.   Not sure of the difference from the sketch alone.  There is also the same upper fuselage section that features the open fairing for the upper turret of a Mk.III as ell as the a section with the turret faired-over (used in the Mk.V assembly).  I also see parts scattered throughout the sprues that suggest the various turrets and armament used on the earlier Sunderland  (ie: nose and upper turret) … and yes, you do have the beam guns included for the Mk.V. . It does have two different sections for a 'step', though,    I assume the "X'd" one is for a Mk.I and the other one which is called for in the instructions ...  would also apply to a Mk.III..  Looking further, there's a very complete looking interior.  Judging by the number of assembly steps dedicated to the interior in the instructions … if it doesn't lend itself to a cut-away OOTB, it's a pretty good start for the detailers in the crowd.

 

Getting back to the 'do not use' items ...you do have the earlier ASW fuselage antenna and the weapons bay doors, have both the 2 and 3 porthole options . As I've said … everything but the Pegasus option.      Since this project's waited this long to get done, maybe I can wait a little while longer for a possible 'dedicated' Mk.IIIa release from SH - like Stew had suggested … or maybe I'll just cannibalize the "Pegasus engines/props" from one of my Airfix kits (somehow I ended up with 2.5 Sunderland kit in the stash) and re-work them as necessary to make them look a part of the SH tooling.

Hi Scott,

 

Having looked at the SH Kit instructions, some issues there already for the modeller.

 

If ML825 had an upper turret, there is no provision, that I can, see for the Turret lower section,

or turret transparency,which is sad as some modellers may wish to build a WWII Mk V also.

The Section for the "Hump" where the upper turret sat is totally wrong on the kit, it's actually more square

in profile as is the hatch as you can see in these links

Upper Hatch Hump

 

Upper Hatch hump 1

 

Upper Hatch Hump 2

 

From the inside

 

The SH Kit rear turret is shown with clam shell doors, not found on Mk III/Mk V (Only Mk I/II's)

 

The actual flight deck (barring that curtain) is pretty much spot on equipment wise, especially

the forward face of the WAG  bulkhead

Other areas not so, as well some colour call outs

 

To your question on the Pegasus Engines and Props

I, some time ago checked the Airfix Cowls against the Italeri, and both are very close in size.

The Pavla resin are (AFAIK) copies of the Italeri, so would suffice as would the Props for a Mk III

The unknown of course is, how close or different are the size/shale of the SH  nacelles.

Sorry I can't give you any more joy than that

Would very much look forward to seeing a Mk IIIa built

 

Regards

 

Alan

Edited April 6, 2019 by LDSModeller

[Scott Hemsley]

Allan … again your post is very informative. 

 

In terms of the upper turret, I think it's all there - within the "X 'd" items.  There are a number of parts on the "F". "J" and "CP" sprues that seem to be good candidates for upper turret parts, but until I get the plastic in hand, I won't know for sure. Going solely by a 2D sketch can be misleading at best.  When it comes to the interior, I sincerely doubt much will be seen anyway, short of a cutaway … once things are closed up.

 

Today, I spent some time looking into the Italeri Mk.III and the more I looked into it, the less impressed I was and more convinced that I'll be using the SHH kit as a basis for the Mk.IIIa, particularly since I discovered 4 Aeroclub Pegasus engine and cowlings (resin and white metal) in with my Airfix Sunderland (I forgot about those), so the idea of backdating the SH kit seems more feasible. However, you raised a valid point that unfortunately won't be resolved until I get the kit in hand and can physically dry-fit the Aeroclub engines to the kit nacelles … are they compatible?.

 

Scott

 

 

[Sydhuey]

On a side note with Sunderlands I have finally acquired the book "Maritime is Number Ten" read it 20 odd years ago and finally got a copy, this is a bible of Sunderland info lists all the mods done by 10 Sqn during the war and when , fitment of galley gun's, "acquiring" a twin gun browning nose turret from a crashed Wellington and fitting to a Sunderland replacing the single VGO turret , acquiring .50's from a US unit and fitting them to waist positions after the RAF said no and proving it worked , fitting fixed nose guns including 2 x 20mm cannon , the RAF and Shorts said no to that one , and the fitment of 4 x P&W 1830's from Catalina's to make the Mk V , interesting book , of note because 10 Sqn "Owned" their aircraft ( as the originals were purchased by the RAAF and part of the deal for 10 Sqn to stay in the UK was the RAF would supply replacement aircraft) they could basicly do as they wanted to them without the RAF stopping them despite how they tried and how the modifications introduced at 10 Sqn permeated thru the Sunderland fleet.  

[Sydhuey]

Scott with you doing the Canadian machine in 1944 , as I mentioned for some reason Special Hobby's (as a lot of another makers as well) are fixated on early war depth bombs and early depth chargers , you will need a couple of sets of aftermarket 250Ib depth charges, EMK or Brassin or even Special Hobby make them (they make the correct ordinance and fit the wrong ordinance to the model).

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Sydhuey said:

On a side note with Sunderlands I have finally acquired the book "Maritime is Number Ten" r

Not exactly a book for the masses but well worth having. See post 26 here if you want one (:>)

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234930547-italeri-sunderland-mk-ii-raaf-10-squadron/&page=2

 l I was surprised to show the Mk V with early war depth bombs (out of use by 1942) and not Depth Charges

I hope I didn't contribute to that with Post 34 (op cit) but I was informed in time and never used them.

[Sydhuey]

Ed got mine from the US for $150 USD , very happy at that price.

[Ed Russell]

20 minutes ago, Sydhuey said:

Ed got mine from the US for $150 USD , very happy at that price.

Bargain!

[Scott Hemsley]

Thanks for the 'heads-up' regarding the Sunderland's depth bombs, but as I (at this point) intend to display the model with the bombs stored internally and the doors closed - basically as one would see it 'land-locked', I'm not really too concerned.  However, OTOH, since I'll probably be getting a few for other a/c (notably the Catalina & Liberator x2) on the to-do list, I may very well add the Sunderland's requirements to that list and display it accordingly.  I take it that they still used the same Universal bomb racks as per kit?

 

As I mentioned to a friend, the actual build may be a-ways off (at least until I get some additional display space), , but that doesn't prevent me from acquiring what I need and having it join it's contemporaries in the stash.  In the meantime, I'm absorbing all the great information and advice I'm getting from this thread.  Thanks, guys!

 

 

Scott

[Sydhuey]

Std bomb racks , just 250 Ib DC's from early 1942 onwards.

[LDSModeller]

3 hours ago, Scott Hemsley said:

Thanks for the 'heads-up' regarding the Sunderland's depth bombs, but as I (at this point) intend to display the model with the bombs stored internally and the doors closed - basically as one would see it 'land-locked', I'm not really too concerned.  However, OTOH, since I'll probably be getting a few for other a/c (notably the Catalina & Liberator x2) on the to-do list, I may very well add the Sunderland's requirements to that list and display it accordingly.  I take it that they still used the same Universal bomb racks as per kit?

HI Scott,

 

Photo for you of Bomb Trucks and Racks - note the kit/instructions are missing the parallel (to the truck) mounting

bars, to which the racks attach to.

 

I know Modellers like to show their models armed to the teeth ready for "Bear", but the following may

just be to your advantage.

From the "Horses Mouth" - Ordnance like Depth Charges etc were removed before the aircraft was

even readied for beaching by squadron/base armourers, along with most of the fuel remaining in tanks.

This may help with your issue of finding depth charges ( or not in this case).

The other error which SH again show on the Kit instructions, are open Bomb Truck tracks under the wings.

The Tracks were only open if the Bomb Trucks were out (or being serviced), other wise they were closed up

by thin metal strips as in this photo

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Scott Hemsley]

Alan... Now that is interesting … on both counts.  Unfortunately, even if I don't chase after the DC's for the Sunderland, I'll certainly need them for the Catalina and quite possibly both the Liberator GR.V and VI, if nothing else than just to 'busy' up the bombays.  The Academy kit's don't exactly contain a wealth of detail in there.  Getting back to the Sunderland, though … I was curious what the wings looked like with the bomb racks stowed and now I know.  I wonder if the kit even supplies the option to close the Bomb Truck tracks (say that 5 times fast) or if I'll have to make my own from some plastic sheet (easy enough).  I'll take a look on the instructions later.

 

Thanks! 

 

Scott

[Admiral Puff]

If you want a set of Peggies and cowls, I'm happy to swap a set of Italeri ones for the R-1830s and cowls from your SH kit. Drop me a pm if you're interested.

[Scott Hemsley]

PM inbound, thank you!

 

Scott

Edited April 10, 2019 by Scott Hemsley