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Auschwitz photo Mossie


Hamsterman

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Hi all!

The first aerial photos of Auschwitz are credited to a 60 Squadron SAAF Mosquito.  I believe it was a PR XVI.  Are the squadron fuselage codes and serial known for that plane?  Could make for an interesting build.  Was thinking of using the well known aerial photo of Auschwitz as a display base.

Thanks and have a good weekend everyone!

Chris

 

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60 Sqn didn`t wear fuselage codes but they did wear D-Day stripes even though they were based n the Med and also had a white fin and rudder with thin red diagonal stripes, all to help identify them to USAAF Mustang pilots over Germany as being friendly,... which sadly didn`t always work. Post war the unit wore JS codes back in South Africa.

 

From a quick search the photos from this sortie were marked Sortie no. 60PR/694.

 

You may find this interesting;

https://samilhistory.com/2015/12/28/the-south-african-air-force-discovered-auschwitz-extermination-camp/

 

Good luck in your Googling, Here are some pics to be going on with;

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&q=mosquito+60+sqn+saaf&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip8NCawqjhAhV4ShUIHVyJBSMQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1353&bih=615

 

Cheers,

           Tony 

Edited by tonyot
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Hi Tony,

Thanks for your help.  It seems we've found similar websites!  I can't believe I forgot that the SAAF Mossie didn't have fuselage codes.  Big DUH!  Silly question but why do some SAAF Mossies have a single letter on the fuselage?  For example, in the first example you sent, the foremost Mossie in the painting has a letter E on the fuselage.  The other Mossie in the background does not have any fuselage code. 

 

I've done more digging  and as it turns out, the 60PR/694 mission was not the first mission over Auschwitz.  The first mission flown by Barry and McIntyre took place on 4 April 1944 with a second on 31 May, 1944.  Better yet, I found reference to SAAF mission reports being FREE at the UK National Archives.  Peter, I was able to track down the mission report for the 4 April mission and it lists the serial number as LR442.  Score!

 

Thanks for the thoughts!

Cheers!

 

32559996027_4bb8c296b6_k.jpg

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Hi.

Be aware that not all 60 sqdn Mossies had D-Day stripes, and some only the lower half.

You really have to see a photo of that Mossie to work out if it had D-Day stripes. For instance, the photo shows that Pi Pienaar, that had the 262 encounter had stripes but on the photos it showed his a/c did not have them. 

Stefaan

 

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33 minutes ago, Stefaan said:

Hi.

Be aware that not all 60 sqdn Mossies had D-Day stripes, and some only the lower half.

You really have to see a photo of that Mossie to work out if it had D-Day stripes. For instance, the photo shows that Pi Pienaar, that had the 262 encounter had stripes but on the photos it showed his a/c did not have them. 

Stefaan

 

That rather depends on when the photo was taken, doesn't it?

A photo can prove that stripes were painted on the aircraft, but they can't prove that they weren't if the photo was taken before they were added or after they were removed (although with the latter there's often an indication in the paintwork where they've been removed).

I don't have the exact dates to hand, but prior to D-Day there would be no stripes, for D-Day full stripes were added, then after a few weeks the upper surface stripes were removed but the lower stripes retained, then later in the year the lower stripes were removed as well.

If Chris is intending to model LR442 as per the 4th April 1944 or the aircraft as flown 31st May 1944, then as this was prior to D-Day there wouldn't be any stipes on the aircraft then, irespective of any photographic evidence there might be that shows them applied later.

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3 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

That rather depends on when the photo was taken, doesn't it?

A photo can prove that stripes were painted on the aircraft, but they can't prove that they weren't if the photo was taken before they were added or after they were removed (although with the latter there's often an indication in the paintwork where they've been removed).

I don't have the exact dates to hand, but prior to D-Day there would be no stripes, for D-Day full stripes were added, then after a few weeks the upper surface stripes were removed but the lower stripes retained, then later in the year the lower stripes were removed as well.

If Chris is intending to model LR442 as per the 4th April 1944 or the aircraft as flown 31st May 1944, then as this was prior to D-Day there wouldn't be any stipes on the aircraft then, irespective of any photographic evidence there might be that shows them applied later.

Hi Dave,

 

Yes, you're correct.  I understand what Tony was getting at.  To be fair, the online references to the Auschwitz photo missions aren't always clear.  The first article Tony referenced names the SAAF  that flew the first mission but doesn't give a date for that particular mission.  TO confuse things, the article also references SAAF Sortie no. 60PR/694 and includes a photo taken of Auschwitz on 25 August, 1944.  It was only after further digging that I realized what was going on.  The article is combining elements of two different missions: the crew from the 4 April mission with a photo from the fourth mission on 25 August.  At face value, the article would appear to suggest that the first mission was on 25 August. 

 

To your point about modelling the plane as it would have looked like on the first mission in April, yes, it would not have had the invasion stripes, nor the re/white candy stripes on the tail.  (I'm still trying to figure out when those were introduced.)  That is indeed my current plan but I would like to get an idea what each of the planes looked on each of the first four SAAF missions that occurred on 4 April, 31 May, 26 June and 25 August.  The question now would be did the invasion stripes differ between the 26 June and 25 August missions and were the tail stripes applied for both of those missions or just the August mission.  

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

Chris

 

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There is some conflicting info out there about the red/white striped tails, a quick flick through a couple of my mosquito references indicates these are from 680 sqn RAF, not 60 sqn SAAF. Photo's show the red/white striped tail with full invasion stripes, so these would be appropriate for straight after D-Day. Photo's atrributed to 60 sqn SAAF show full D-Day stripes but no red/white tail stripes.

To be absolutelty sure you need dates and squadron attribution for the photographs, none of which for the photographs in Martin Bowmans Osprey Mosquito PR units i'm convinced by.

I'd like to model a PRXVI of 680 sqn with the red & white striped tail, but haven't found conclusive evidence of whether these were 680 sqn, 60sqn SAAF, or were possibly pooled aircraft used by both squadrons in Italy.

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According to Combat Colours #5, pg 14, "... the two squadrons shared the same airfield and did not have any squadron codes to differentiate their aircraft, they adopted coloured spinners as the Squadron marking; No 680 Squadron painted their spinners Red, whilst 60 Squadron SAAF painted theirs yellow."  That same page shows a photo of PR XVI, NS644, 'G', of No 60 Squadron with red and white stripes on the tail.  Of course, the Squadron Mosquito in Action Pt 1 book shows No 680 Squadron with yellow spinners and red and white stripes.  The Warpaint Special book on the Mosquito, pg 58 shows the profile of MM366, a No 609 squadron plane from June 1944 with full invasion stripes, no tail stripes and yellow spinners.  MM366 was the plane flown for the 4th Auschwitz recon mission in August 1944.  But of course, on page 59 there are profiles of both 690 and 680 squadron planes, both with red stripes on the tail and PRU blue spinners. Dang, if only that book had as many primary photos as it does profiles.  I see what you mean about conflicting information.

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21 minutes ago, Hamsterman said:

That same page shows a photo of PR XVI, NS644, 'G', of No 60 Squadron with red and white stripes on the tail.

NS644 G is also atributed to 680 sqn.

23 minutes ago, Hamsterman said:

they adopted coloured spinners as the Squadron marking; No 680 Squadron painted their spinners Red, whilst 60 Squadron SAAF painted theirs yellow." 

Also explained as red/white rudder for 680 and red/white rudder & fin for 60

22 minutes ago, Hamsterman said:

I see what you mean about conflicting information. 

Welcome to the club!

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The mission over Auschwitz was done on 4th APRIL 1944. What D-Day strips got to do with it? Later it could have applieds, then overpainted etc. - but if you are going to do it from this day the strips question does not exists.

Regards

J-W

 

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7 hours ago, JWM said:

The mission over Auschwitz was done on 4th APRIL 1944. What D-Day strips got to do with it? Later it could have applieds, then overpainted etc. - but if you are going to do it from this day the strips question does not exists.

Regards

J-W

 

Hi Jim,

Correct, LR442 would not have had invasion stripes on 4 April.  The article Tony referenced in his response seemed to suggest the 4 April mission occurred on 25 August, in which case, invasion stripes would be appropriate to discuss.  There still is the question about what the invasion stripes would have looked like on the planes that flew photo missions over Auschwitz looked like on 26 June and 25 August.  Here's a brief summary of what I think I know:

 

4 April - LR442; 60 SQD piloted by Lts Barry and McIntyre = PRU blue, 32” two-color blue/red roundel, larger 24” square red/white/blue fin flash, no invasion stripes, no red/white tail stripes, yellow prop spinners (?)

31 May - LR469; 60 SQD piloted by Capt. Larter and Lt. Stolk = PRU blue, 32” two-color blue/red roundel, larger 24” square red/white/blue fin flash, no invasion stripes, no red/white tail stripes, yellow prop spinners (?)

26 June - MM369; 60 SQD piloted by Lts Vanston and Jefferys = PRU blue, 32” two-color blue/red roundel, larger 24” square red/white/blue fin flash or smaller 12" fin flash (?), full invasion stripes around fuselage and tops and bottoms of wings (?), no red/white tail stripes, yellow prop spinners (?)

25 August - MM366; 60 SQD piloted by Lts. Stevens and McKnight = PRU blue, 32” two-color blue/red roundel, larger 24” square red/white/blue fin flash or smaller 12" fin flash (?), invasion stripes on bottom of wings and bottom half of fuselage or just bottom half of fuselage(?), red/white tail stripes on rudder only or rudder and vertical stabilizer, yellow prop spinners (?)

 

My primary focus is the 4 April mission.  The other missions are a bonus.

Thanks

Chris

 

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Chris,

The strips from bottom and overal fuselage existed in one time in unit:

Mosquito-60Sq-SAAF-Italy44.jpg

Also some machines had red spinners

MosquitPRXVI-680Sq-SAAF.jpg

Please note strange fuselage roundel (like post-war) along with all around fuselage strips (and no on wings at all) in second from left machine. One machine in line above has NM or white external wing tank.

In links below there are also interesting machines but serials are not from your list 

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd121/jackfrost_011/SAAFMOZ1-2.jpg

http://wildaviation.com/cms/images/stories/real/Mosquito/MOSSIE_1.jpg

Regards

J-W

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, JWM said:

Also some machines had red spinners

As per above posts, red spinners are supposed to be 680 Sqn RAF, yellow spinners 60 sqn SAAF.

Chris, note that none of the photo's show underwing invasion stripes (ergo no overwing either?) whilst sporting full fuselage stripes

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17 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Chris, note that none of the photo's show underwing invasion stripes (ergo no overwing either?) whilst sporting full fuselage stripes

I noticed that also.  I guess there was a fair amount of variability even among planes of the same squadron.  I'll stick to the 4 April mission, at least for this project.  Those markings seem to be fairly straight forward.  Silly question, do you know when the SAAF started using orange, instead of red, on the roundel and fin flash?  It looks like red in those photos and yet I've seen orange in their Spitfire photos.  Was this a squadron specific thing (say 40 squadron Spitfires vs 60 squadron Mossies)? Or, is that really orange on the roundels but the difference is so slight that I'm having a hard time distinguishing between the two.  I'm trying to compare the red stripes on the tail, red spinners with the roundel.  Maybe orange....

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Chris, I'm no epert on the SAAF, I know they used orange to replace the red in roundels, but couldn't give you anything more specific than that. My modelling interest is in the Mosquito and the RAF and I'm trying to ensure I can model a 680 sqn example, not a 60 sqn one.

Of the two colour photos posted above, the lower one with the red spinners, looks like dull red used for spinners, tail stripes and fuselage roundel centres whilst the tail stripes of the one next to the yellow spinners have a definite orange tinge to them, as does the trolley acc wheel. Whether this is the actual colour, an artefact of the image processing, lighting, or wishful thinking I don't know, but it fits Paul Lucas' statement that 680 had red spinners and 60 had yellow, what basis he used to determine that I don't know. He's very good at publishing hard facts, but he also publishes a lot of hypotheses, and there's no clarification either way on this matter.

The B/W photo of RG134 shows very dark fin stripes and fin flash leading colour matching the spinner colour, I'd put these as red, but mossie.org lists this airframe going to the SAAF, did it serve with 680 sqn beforehand, or is Paul Lucas wrong and 60 sqn operated with red spinners?

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Hi Guys.

There are numerous misconceptions re the colours of 60 sqdn Mossies.

Lets start at the beginning.

60 SAAF sqdn, 680 RAF and a unit(I think detachment of USAAF 325 Photographic Wing, formed MAPRW. (Mediteranean Allied Photographic Recce Wing).

I have interviewed Charles Barry, N Rodseth, Mcknight etc.

They all said that 60 Sqdn got the Barber stripes early 1944, the reasons were discussed.

To identify which a/c belonged to who, and help with ID 60 sqdn had the whole fin in barber stripes, and 680 only the fin. The yanks had the full fin in red.

The colours of spinners had nothing to do with which sqdn but each Flight had a different colour spinner.

Those profiles in the Osprey and other books showing full fins as 680 sqdn RAF are wrong.

Why some Mosssies had D-day stripes and others not has nothing to do with MAPRW orders to apply.

Most of these Mossies were received with either stripes or not, and kept as they were received. 

The Mediteranean a/c did not apply D-Day stripes. (Note 205 BG and 3 Wing a/c never had stripes, and they also operated over Italy and southern Austria.) 

A/C G as discussed was 60 sqdn SAAF and its regular pilot N Rodseth. (Tony O Toole check SAAF at War)

Hope it helps

Stefaan

  

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20 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

Maybe ortho film to render the yellow dark?

No, the prop tips are light, spinner is dark, so given colour image evidence of red spinners this is likely, also possibly black or dark blue.

 

22 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

According to airhistory.org, RG134 only ever served with 60 Sqn, starting 9 August 1945.

But built between mid Dec 44 and early May 45, assuming an even buld rate most likely February 45, so did it spend 6 months at M.U's before going to 60 sqn? Airhistory.org.uk states 60SAAF To SAAF 9.8.45, this info presumably from it's RAF card, I take this to mean it served with 60 sqn SAAF (but was still "owned" by the RAF) and was disposed of by the RAF to the SAAF on 9/8/45.

 

10 minutes ago, Stefaan said:

and 680 only the fin.

Only the fin, or do you mean rudder? I don't recall seeing any plain rudder/striped fin, but have seen striped rudder plain fin?

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Hi Dave. Sorry, finger trouble. Only the rudder in barber stripes for 680 RAF.

I am sure those Mossies in D-Day stripes were received soon zfter D-Day, and astime progresed the later ones were delivered with modified stfipes or no stripes at all.

 

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2 hours ago, Stefaan said:

The colours of spinners had nothing to do with which sqdn but each Flight had a different colour spinner.

  

Hi Stefaan, could you explain more about the various flights and which color was associated with which flight?  This is the first I'm hearing about this.  Thanks!

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Hi.

I was told that that was the cause of different colour spinners by the pilots interviewed. 

Three Flights, and there may have been an HQ Flight. It was not uncommon in the SAAF as our 2 Sqdn Mustangs showed the same variable colours in Korea. The HQ A/c then had all the colours on the spinners.

Which Flight had which colour I cannot tell you. I have never researched 60 sqdn in depth so cannot tell you if it is lurking somewhere in the WD.

Sorry I cannot be more helpfull.

That is why I say you have to look at a photo of each Mossie to work out what that a/c markings and colours look like.

Stefaan

 

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