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Phantom FGR2 colour questions

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XV474 at Duxford had quite a few promotional stickers stuck on her in the first few years she was at the museum hence some of the staining and paint peeling. What is interesting,and is noticeable in the first picture,is the area around the cockpit showing a slightly different grey to the rest of the fuselage which extends onto the canopy frame -it's symmetrical and appears not to be over-spray as the rescue markings are original.

I have the advantage of volunteering at Duxford in the hangar in which she is kept.

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Right this is how things turned out.  I pre coloured the main wing areas darker ( left the leading edges a bit lighter) and then over sprayed both with the same lighter grey.  I then dusted the main areas very lightly with some darker grey.  The result under artificial light - one wing looks darker than the other!  Both are same colour & both wing tips are lighter, but the light mixes them all up

 

JmBhKaFsJWCo6A7jfO4sNmQFCrmfj--tL9KfPFuA

 

So in short the left wing looks to be the same colour on wing & tip but isn’t.  The right wing looks two very different colours but isn’t really.  Guess this how we got in to this in the first place.  The aux intake doors are edged pink / red but you can’t see it, and the tail needs to be darker blue for 19 Sqn. And the canopy frame needs doing too.

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On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 2:22 AM, Phone Phixer said:

I worked on them for 3 years and never noticed any great difference in colour of the upper surfaces. Under all the muck and boot marks it was just grey! Certainly not the variation of MSG and barley grey.

I think your idea of one colour (barley grey) with slight variation in shading would be spot on.

The upper aux air doors would be red on the inside of the doors. The fuselage cavity went into the engine bay, so just a dark metallic colour or black would do, I think. At rest with power off they were only open the slightest bit anyway, not enough to really see into.

The lower aux air doors were wide open when at rest, follow the same colouring. Airbrakes were red on the inner face of the airbrake, white in the wing recess.

As a basic rule, it was the movable part that was painted red.

 

Rob.

I was on the same Sqn (19F) as Phone Phixer with our times over lapping.  And I never noticed any difference in colours between the wing and the fuselage.  In fact the first time I was aware of the difference was when I opened a 1/48 kit (I guess the Hasegawa) looking to see if there were any Dolphin decals included and read the painting instructions.

 

Some of the completed models we have seen are very wide of the mark when comparing the varying shades of grey on the RAF Phantoms.

 

 

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With you guys having been there & worked on them, can you tell be what the strap around the nose cone was for? Always see them in pictures but don’t know what the are called or are for

 

1344720-large.jpg

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I never had the pleasure of working with them, but my understanding is the strap protected the static ports on the nose radome piece.

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I worked on them for 12 years.First in ASF at Coningsby,then 4sqdn StAthan. I don’t remember there being a difference in the grays on the inner/outer wings and fuselage either.Like PLC1966 I only became aware of it when I bought a Hasegawa 1/48 kit.

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Ok, I'm confused, are the instructions in the AP a lie? or just ignore? I've not spotted anthing in the modification list calling out a change to the grey scheme.

John

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53 minutes ago, Fat Squid said:

I worked on them for 12 years.First in ASF at Coningsby,then 4sqdn StAthan. I don’t remember there being a difference in the grays on the inner/outer wings and fuselage either.Like PLC1966 I only became aware of it when I bought a Hasegawa 1/48 kit.

 

When were you at 4 Sqn St Athan. I was there between Jul 87 to Oct 89. Not sure about the differences, but I do know that the freshly painted aircraft got scuffed up rather quickly when we were clambering all over them.

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On 28/03/2019 at 21:25, bar side said:

Right this is how things turned out.  I pre coloured the main wing areas darker ( left the leading edges a bit lighter) and then over sprayed both with the same lighter grey.  I then dusted the main areas very lightly with some darker grey.  The result under artificial light - one wing looks darker than the other!  Both are same colour & both wing tips are lighter, but the light mixes them all up

 

JmBhKaFsJWCo6A7jfO4sNmQFCrmfj--tL9KfPFuA

 

So in short the left wing looks to be the same colour on wing & tip but isn’t.  The right wing looks two very different colours but isn’t really.  Guess this how we got in to this in the first place.  The aux intake doors are edged pink / red but you can’t see it, and the tail needs to be darker blue for 19 Sqn. And the canopy frame needs doing too.

This looks spot on, only noticeably different depending on the light, which seems to be how real ones look in photos. I bet close up to the real thing, especially a dirty one, it'd be hard to see any difference in colour.

 

I think I'll just spray a coat of DSG on the inner wings on mine then overspray the whole aircraft Barley grey, including the inner wings.

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30 minutes ago, Jabba said:

 

When were you at 4 Sqn St Athan. I was there between Jul 87 to Oct 89. Not sure about the differences, but I do know that the freshly painted aircraft got scuffed up rather quickly when we were clambering all over them.

I was there from 1982 to 1988.

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1 hour ago, Lord Riot said:

This looks spot on, only noticeably different depending on the light, which seems to be how real ones look in photos. I bet close up to the real thing, especially a dirty one, it'd be hard to see any difference in colour.

 

I think I'll just spray a coat of DSG on the inner wings on mine then overspray the whole aircraft Barley grey, including the inner wings.

Yes, I did the inner wings Humbrol 27 & then top coated with grey 64.  Not barley, but not far off.  Then a very light dust of 27 over the top afterwards

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I'm with the other Phantom Phixers in that I never ever noticed the difference in the greys on the upper surfaces. I'm not saying there wasn't a difference but it must have been quite subtle and once some weathering and fading was added then I guess it became even less obvious.

I have painted one using the recommended colours and have to say that it just didn't look right to me, the grey on the inner wing looked way too dark and needed toning down.

 

Duncan B

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14 hours ago, canberra kid said:

Ok, I'm confused, are the instructions in the AP a lie? or just ignore? I've not spotted anthing in the modification list calling out a change to the grey scheme.

John

I wouldn’t argue with the AP. But I just don’t remember a difference in the grey on the main and outer wings.I distinctly remember buying a Hasegawa kit at the time  (1980’s)and only then being aware of the colours.Ive currently got two in my stash to build.So I’m interested to see what others come up with.

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14 hours ago, canberra kid said:

Ok, I'm confused, are the instructions in the AP a lie? or just ignore? I've not spotted anthing in the modification list calling out a change to the grey scheme.

John

The relevant AP's are the bible on everything from how many pairs of socks per bod to paint schemes, they are first, last and every word in between. 

 

I just think like Duncan B says 'I'm not saying there wasn't a difference but it must have been quite subtle and once some weathering and fading was added then I guess it became even less obvious.' 

 

 

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Would I be correct to believe that the inside of the air intakes is white?

 

 

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Just now, Lord Riot said:

Would I be correct to believe that the inside of the air intakes is white?

 

 

Yes but like everything on the F-4 they are a bit grubby.

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9 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

The relevant AP's are the bible on everything from how many pairs of socks per bod to paint schemes, they are first, last and every word in between. 

 

I just think like Duncan B says 'I'm not saying there wasn't a difference but it must have been quite subtle and once some weathering and fading was added then I guess it became even less obvious.' 

 

 

could this be the legendary 'scale effect' ? 

John  

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20 hours ago, canberra kid said:

could this be the legendary 'scale effect' ? 

John  

Really don't know, it is all a bit odd to me.  But I do know I went back to the Sqn after seeing the Hasegawa instructions and could still not see the difference, I am glad I am not the only Ex-Toom bod who noticed, or rather didn't notice, the difference. 

 

And then there were the 74Sqn Green/Aqua Blue/Grey  jets, which I guess were also supposed to follow the AP.  Although to be fair, I could see the difference there !!

 

Cheers.

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1 hour ago, PLC1966 said:

 

 

And then there were the 74Sqn Green/Aqua Blue/Grey  jets, which I guess were also supposed to follow the AP.  Although to be fair, I could see the difference there !!

 

Cheers.

Weren’t the 74 Sqn Js painted in the US before delivery, grey over zinc chromate?

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28 minutes ago, bar side said:

Weren’t the 74 Sqn Js painted in the US before delivery, grey over zinc chromate?

The 74 sqn a/c were refurbished and painted in the States using FS paints over a strong undercoat. I seem to remember that light aircraft gray was used for the undersides and flint gray as one of the upper surface colours.

 

Barley gray and medium sea grey were always pretty close and got dirty very quickly; if you have a look at Robbie Shaw's book you can see how quickly. I was checking through my models and notice that I painted XV428 - the one that crashed at Abingdon - with Barley gray inner wings; something advised on the Modeldecal sheet and Dick Ward rarely (if ever) got that sort of detail wrong.

 

A couple of years ago, on this forum, there was discussion around the accuracy of the new Xtradecal markings for XT863 - the 111sqn a/c at Greenham (IAT) in 1983. Basically Hannants had misread the colours on the newly painted a/c as just being Light Aircraft Grey overall when in fact, as proved by photos of her being repainted at Leuchars, she was in the 3 colour scheme - albeit brand new and clean. . If you search Airfix Phantom it's there somewhere.

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51 minutes ago, bar side said:

Weren’t the 74 Sqn Js painted in the US before delivery, grey over zinc chromate?

I seem to remember they were pulled out of the boneyard, and as you say, painted in the US.  But the expectation must have been they would have resembled the current fleet upon their arrival.  A couple of them still had the repairs to holes in them following service in Vietnam.

 

22 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

Barley gray and medium sea grey were always pretty close and got dirty very quickly; if you have a look at Robbie Shaw's book you can see how quickly. I was checking through my models and notice that I painted XV428 - the one that crashed at Abingdon - with Barley gray inner wings; something advised on the Modeldecal sheet and Dick Ward rarely (if ever) got that sort of detail wrong.

 

I think we all agree there were differing colours on the wings to the fuselage, it was just spectacularly hard to see the difference approximately 2.5 minutes after the jet left the paint bay at Saints !!

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Great to see the St Athan 4 Sqn input here. Momentous day today as the airfield waved goodbye to the MoD, sadly with little ceremony.

 

Got some nice pics of Phantoms at Saints, including XV424 in a single all over light aircraft grey scheme.

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12 hours ago, 71chally said:

Got some nice pics of Phantoms at Saints, including XV424 in a single all over light aircraft grey scheme.

Please would we be able to see some on here if you get time to upload any?

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