Phantom FGR2 colour questions

[Jabba]

25 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Please would we be able to see some on here if you get time to upload any?

 

I know I have some pictures of the aircraft that I worked on at Saints when they were being flight tested, just don't know where they are at the moment and I am not sure if they will show what is being talked about. But I will try and find them.

[Jabba]

I have been in the loft and found some pictures of newly paint Phantoms at Saints. Please give me a few days to get them loaded up.

[Jabba]

I have managed to get 1 photo up of a newly painted Phantom on I think its first test flight, sorry it is where it is one the page as I do not know how to crop it. In this I can see 3 different colours of grey (just) especially the difference between the fuselage and inner wing. I will try and get some more uploaded and hopefully learn how to get them cropped.

 

[JosephLalor]

My recollection is that Barley Grey was another example of a mixed grey, 7 parts Medium Sea Grey to 1 part white, which was held to be a match for BS4800 18B21 Squirrel Grey.  Assuming I'm not romancing, would such a mixture be close enough to MSG that weathering would 'blur the edges' over time?  I'm also wondering if painting or re-painting of machines departed from the AP.

Edited April 2, 2019 by JosephLalor

[sloegin57]

21 minutes ago, JosephLalor said:

My recollection is that Barley Grey was another example of a mixed grey, 7 parts Medium Sea Grey to 1 part white, which was held to be a match for BS4800 18B21 Squirrel Grey.  Assuming I'm not romancing, would such a mixture be close enough to MSG that weathering would 'blur the edges' over time?  I'm also wondering if painting or re-painting of machines departed from the AP.

Barley Grey was devised by Mr PJ Barley as part of the three tone paint system designed to "merge" the aircraft into any background.  It comprised 20 parts Light Aircraft Grey to one part Black (according to Dick Ward - who phoned and asked Farnborough !!).  The resultant scheme as devised was dead Matt on purpose.  As far as I know, Barley Grey, which was mixed at RAE Farnborough and issued to the MU, was never given a number, either BSC 381 or BS 4800.  

 

For commercial production, and also to overcome the problems with the Matt painted aircraft as discussed here, a new colour, BS4800 18.B.21, was selected as this was the nearest that Farnborough could get to the original Barley Grey.  This colour was slightly darker and much bluer than Barley Grey but the most important point about it was that it, and the other two colours - MSG and LAG, were produced in a Satin finish, almost semi-Gloss.  The introduction of this new colour resulted in Phantom Mod 741 as indicated on the AP drawing that Canberra kid published.  There was not a lot of difference between the Satin/Semi-Gloss BS4800 colour and the Satin/Semi-Gloss Medium Sea Grey

 

Many commentators, including the late Dick Ward got the impression that Barley Grey had been given the designation BS4800 18.B.21.  This is incorrect.  The latter paint was a commercially available paint and put into production in a manner fit for aircraft use by the various paint manufacturers.

 

In 1982, along with a set of decals, I received from Dick the following urgent request :-

 

The aircraft that Alan was talking about was the first post mod aircraft that Leuchars received and I new immediately that he has passed on to Dick his reservations as I had been talking to him that very same day.  I had already checked the recently amended AP  and knew that the aircraft was still in a three tone scheme although it was at times difficult to tell the fuselage colour from the upper inner mainplane colour :-

 

Post Mod 741

 

As a comparison, I am attaching a shot of the first Grey aircraft that we received, XT870 in 1980 also fresh from the St Athan paint Shop :-

Barley Grey, MSG and LAG

 

Strictly speaking, Barley Grey should not be referred to as the fuselage and outer mainplanes colour after the first half a dozen or so aircraft had been painted but some how, Barley Grey appears to have set itself in the consciousness of modellers and commentators ever since.  It has, as I have already said, been associated incorrectly with BS4800 which it never was.

 

The decals that Dick was designing at the time would have been Set 65 but the Falklands War got in the way and the 43Sqdn markings together with my notes were relegated to Set 67 as a bit of an afterthought.

 

HTH (a little bit)

 

Dennis

 

 

 

[iainpeden]

1 hour ago, Jabba said:

I have managed to get 1 photo up of a newly painted Phantom on I think its first test flight, sorry it is where it is one the page as I do not know how to crop it. In this I can see 3 different colours of grey (just) especially the difference between the fuselage and inner wing. I will try and get some more uploaded and hopefully learn how to get them cropped.

 

Jabba

I guess you could crop them on the scanner by doing a preview then sizing it by putting the cursor on one corner of the picture and dragging the preview box to fit.

 

Are they Vulcans or Victors being broken up in the back ground?

 

 

[whiskey]

I am so confused now. Then again my interest in British Phantoms just sparked around 3 weeks ago so I am trying to play catch up. Great photos btw Dennis.

[Jabba]

8 hours ago, iainpeden said:

Jabba

I guess you could crop them on the scanner by doing a preview then sizing it by putting the cursor on one corner of the picture and dragging the preview box to fit.

 

Are they Vulcans or Victors being broken up in the back ground?

 

 

 

Thanks, they were Victors on the fire dump.

[canberra kid]

Thanks @sloegin57 Dennis, informative as always! 

John

[71chally]

Superb shots of the fresh Phantoms, that's how I like to model them!

 

Saints doesn't quite look like that anymore, with the two Victors is I think the PR.9 which now only survives as a nice camo'd cockpit section.

 

The shots I have are of XV424 in all over light aircraft grey, with large full colour tactical roundels and a black radome.  I was told that it was a trial scheme pre the 'interceptor' grey finish grey, however this is the same aircraft that would wear the Alcock & Browne scheme, and the shots are possibly of that era.

 

Will scan soon, just need to set up my 'putor stuff after a move.

 

[iainpeden]

James

I'm going back to the Bible on Phantom colours, "Phantom Squadrons of the Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm" by Richard L Ward (Dick of Modeldecal.

 

There were 2 Phantoms used in initial trials of grey, XV474 and XV418. Both had the RWR fitted at the top of the fin and so were not Alcock and Browne aircraft (XV424 and XV486).

 

XV418 went to 19 sqn in 1978/79 in LAG with full size markings, but in pale blue/pink and black serials with standard stencilling (there's a challenge).

 

XV424 initially went to 23, again in LAG, and retained the full size/full colour markings of the grey/green scheme; in addition she carried a red eagle on the nose, a black X on the fin and black serials. Initially she carried a black radome. She then passed to 56 in early 1979. The photo of her, taken 16/4/80 shows her with black serial, reduced size markings still in red/blue a red F on the fin (no markings on the nose gear door, and red checks on the RWR fairing. Also, on the nose under the windscreen 56 markings comprising the phoenix with red checks either side. stencils look to be of the grey/green era rather than the white toned down.

 

Be interested to see your picture of XV424; key will be if the RWR is fitted or not. You may have a picture of her after painting for the trans-Atlantic trip but before all the fancy stuff was added.

 

Another question for somebody. XV428, the 1988 display a/c which crashed at Abingdon in the September started the year with a blue tail and blue/yellow strips on the fuselage and the upper leading surface of the wings; she was coded CC in yellow on the rudder. 

I have 2 photos of her (F4 Phantom, Robbie Shaw) taken just 2 days before the accident (according to the author) but she is in the standard scheme with no blue fin or stripes. On the assumption the data on the photo is correct has anybody any idea why, or when, she would have reverted to the standard colours?

[Dazza]

1 hour ago, iainpeden said:

Another question for somebody. XV428, the 1988 display a/c which crashed at Abingdon in the September started the year with a blue tail and blue/yellow strips on the fuselage and the upper leading surface of the wings; she was coded CC in yellow on the rudder. 

I have 2 photos of her (F4 Phantom, Robbie Shaw) taken just 2 days before the accident (according to the author) but she is in the standard scheme with no blue fin or stripes. On the assumption the data on the photo is correct has anybody any idea why, or when, she would have reverted to the standard colours?

The caption in the book is wrong, XV428 was still in overall grey in August 1988 but had the blue trim by the time it crashed at Abingdon in September. XV428 was also not used until later in 1988 display season from what I can ascertain, XV490 and XV499 seemed to have been used most often with XV393 putting in an appearance too I believe...

 

-Daz

[iainpeden]

1 hour ago, Dazza said:

The caption in the book is wrong, XV428 was still in overall grey in August 1988 but had the blue trim by the time it crashed at Abingdon in September. XV428 was also not used until later in 1988 display season from what I can ascertain, XV490 and XV499 seemed to have been used most often with XV393 putting in an appearance too I believe...

 

-Daz

Thanks Daz

Probably explains why it's hard to find pictures if she was only in the scheme for a short time.

 

Edit

https://www.gluseum.com/GB/Wethersfield/314090455678516/Wethersfield-Airfield-Museum

 

Has a picture of XV428, in the display scheme, apparently taken on the 5th June '88.

 

And we thought it was hard getting hard information on WW2 a/c.

Edited April 3, 2019 by iainpeden
additional info

[Jabba]

Havin fiddled with the preview when scanning in these photos I managed to get them a lot better than last night. I have included the same one from last night as it is better. The aircraft was not on a test flight but on a delivery flight as the last couple of photos show as the pilot flew over the hut we used for see offs/ins and I was standing on top of it. Strange also a sunny day in South Wales. This is the first Phantom that I worked on and dates from around late Aug/early Sept 87. Also on the fire dump there is a Hunter.

 

 

 

 

[bobsyouruncle]

Enjoying reading this thread.

I've been looking through my various phantom books and to me it looks like some had the slightly darker shades whereas others didn't (differences especially noticeable in the diamond nine formation shots).

A lot of them have grubby looking upper wing surfaces. One fairly clean one that looks (to me) to have the slightly darker tone on the inner wing is XV470 on page 67 of Ian Black's 'Last of the Phantoms'.

With a lot of scuffs and muck trails that muddy things a bit like this shot of XV393 (Liggat and Manwaring's 'Q' display ship) on the cover of Air Display magazine and it's tricky to see what's exactly what.

Mods please feel free to delete if showing the magazine cover is breaching copyrights (photo credited to RAF inside cover).

 

[Dazza]

21 hours ago, iainpeden said:

https://www.gluseum.com/GB/Wethersfield/314090455678516/Wethersfield-Airfield-Museum

 

Has a picture of XV428, in the display scheme, apparently taken on the 5th June '88.

 

And we thought it was hard getting hard information on WW2 a/c.

The plot apparently thickens... Here is a picture of XV428 supposedly at West Malling in August 1988 still in overall grey! I admit to now being officially confused!

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK-Air-Force/McDonnell-Douglas-F-4M-Phantom-FGR2/1307030/L?qsp=eJwtjMEKwkAMBf8lZy9WEelNf0APIl5D8tBidZdsoC6l/25cvA0zMDNJejs%2BfqkZ1FMBmzxoRZmNX4X6mZ6oUzINptt12%2B0jlmR%2BrCGUHQcRZIf%2B/ckU9kso0j73%2BK4DYOfGtNmF16HkkdsDzsNIy/IF6ZIt5w%3D%3D

 

-Daz

Edited April 4, 2019 by Dazza

[Lord Riot]

Does this look a shade too dark?  I used BS626 spray, custom filled - they said it's equivalent to Barley grey.

 

 

[iainpeden]

In the "West Malling" photo she looks very fresh and clean; the pictures in Robbie Shaw's book show her in standard matt/filthy mode.

So the potential timeline is:

June '88 - with display markings at Wethersfield

August '88 - No markings and clean at West Malling (Scramble hasn't got a list of West Malling Shows at all unfortunately).

 

Video of the West Malling display here - can't make out the code

 

Mid Sept '88 - no markings and in a "used" state.

 

Given the tragic events at Abingdon I wonder if anybody can confirm the display markings. No that it really matters given what happened.

 

[iainpeden]

Just now, Lord Riot said:

Does this look a shade too dark?  I used BS626 spray, custom filled - they said it's equivalent to Barley grey.

 

 

Looks about right - you have even got the radome a slightly different grey.

[Lord Riot]

Thanks Iain. The radome must be an optical illusion, I sprayed it exactly the same as the rest! Now you mention it though, perhaps I should change it to slightly darker. Medium sea grey perhaps?

[sloegin57]

35 minutes ago, Dazza said:

The plot apparently thickens... Here is a picture of XV428 supposedly at West Malling in August 1988 still in overall grey! I admit to now being officially confused!

 

-Daz

According to Dick Ward on MD Sheet 95 (XV428 plus a load of Wessexes ), the special scheme was removed from XV428 in July 1988. 

 

HTH ( a little bit)

Dennis 

[whiskey]

@iainpeden that Phantom jock had some serious skills! That's the kind of stuff I love to watch at an airshow. I got to meet Steve Richie about 15 odd years back or so and he was still flying an F-4 on the circuit but I can definitely say I've never seen an F-4 pull those moves in person. Amazing video thanks!

 

That brings up something else and forgive me for asking here as I know it's been a discussion regarding the colors. Was the Spey engined F-4 more powerful and manueverable than the J-79 F-4? 

[Jabba]

59 minutes ago, Lord Riot said:

Thanks Iain. The radome must be an optical illusion, I sprayed it exactly the same as the rest! Now you mention it though, perhaps I should change it to slightly darker. Medium sea grey perhaps?

 

All I normally do is add a touch of Brown to the Barley grey for the radome.

[Dazza]

1 hour ago, iainpeden said:

Video of the West Malling display here - can't make out the code

 

 

XV499/CF did the West Malling display...

 

-Daz

47 minutes ago, sloegin57 said:

According to Dick Ward on MD Sheet 95 (XV428 plus a load of Wessexes ), the special scheme was removed from XV428 in July 1988. 

 

HTH ( a little bit)

Dennis 

Thanks, Dennis, that makes more sense!

 

-Daz

[Dazza]

51 minutes ago, whiskey said:

That brings up something else and forgive me for asking here as I know it's been a discussion regarding the colors. Was the Spey engined F-4 more powerful and manueverable than the J-79 F-4? 

The Spey produced more power than the J79 (all versions), 20,515lbs in burner as opposed to 17,900lbs for the J79 (-10/-17). As regards manoeuvrability, all hard wing F-4s were pretty much the same, the exception being the slatted wing F-4s (E/F/G/S and a few late build RF-4Es) which were quite a bit more agile.

 

-Daz

Edited April 4, 2019 by Dazza