Jump to content

PC10 paint mix and Gunze paints?


AndrewCJ50
 Share

Recommended Posts

Dear Fellow Modellers

 

I'm sure this is an old subject, what the best paints are for the RFC PC10 colour, but as a confirmed Gunze paint enthusiast I wondered if anyone had advice on a Gunze paint or mix they could offer?

 

Thanks

 

Andrew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest chestnuts in modelling!

 

You've no doubt read any number of the countless explanations of what it was and how it was made by suspending pigments of iron ore and lampblack in cellulose dope. It could vary greatly depending on application, the doping scheme being used, exposure to the elements and the proportion of iron oxide in the red pigment and the presence of other compounds in that pigment.

 

With that out of the way, it shows how the colour of PC10 had enormous variance and for that reason from a modelling perspective you can run with anything from a lightish olive drab to an almost chocolate colour. Personally I think an olive drab shade is a good place to start and depending on whether you want a weathered machine proceed from there.

 

I use Humbrol and have used 66 (for a fairly fresh factory finish) to 155. It's really up to you and the nice thing is that no one can say you're wrong so long as you stick in that general area!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Though it does'nt provide an exact shade of paint, there's a quote from the late Dan-san Abbott that I've kept filed away:

'The RNAS were not permitted to use PC10, and RFC patent and they developed their own color which was a greenish shade of olive drab.'

 

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

AK-WW1-RFC---RNAS-Aircraft-colors-AK2280

 

regards,

Jack

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JackG said:

Though it does'nt provide an exact shade of paint, there's a quote from the late Dan-san Abbott that I've kept filed away:

'The RNAS were not permitted to use PC10, and RFC patent and they developed their own color which was a greenish shade of olive drab.'

 

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

AK-WW1-RFC---RNAS-Aircraft-colors-AK2280

 

regards,

Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

It might be my monitor/screen but that shade of PC12 looks nothing like what the colour was! The "late PC10" also looks far too green as well.

 

Always difficult to judge colour from a computer screen but the way those two are showing up, they don't look right.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Tim, personally I would not know what the colours should look like digitally or otherwise.  The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

 

regards,

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Worth bearing in mind, the current vougue leans towards a greenish shade of khaki, but the terrain most of these things flew over was largely churned up mud. So to my mind, greenish isn't it.  All commercially available PC10s I've seen are far too green, and most of the mixes too.  Can't easily get Gunze paints where I live, so haven't experimented with them.

 

Paul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, JackG said:

Thanks Tim, personally I would not know what the colours should look like digitally or otherwise.  The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

 

regards,

Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that the colour did change slightly from the beginning of the war to the end, not so much from the ingredients used but instead quantities and doping schemes being used. Once again though this is a bit like trying to catch a million butterflies in a greenhouse. There was so much variation due to the variables I put in my first post above that there just wasn't any kind of meaningful standardisation in the field. Anyone portraying PC10 as anything ranging from an olive drab to a chocolate brown can't really be told they've done it wrong. It's one of those things that modellers probably overthink!

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/03/2019 at 00:00, JackG said:

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

19 hours ago, JackG said:

The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

I would treat anything AK has to say on a subject with caution, or look at other references as well. 

AK did a book, Real Colors of WW2,  which looks very impressive,  discussion of this came up in a thread here, and after a bit of searching it turned up a very cavalier attitude to input from a noted expert, and also on the paints tied in with this see here

Given the posts by  @Smithy who is a careful modeller and researcher,  I'd suspect it's cobblers from AK....

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, krow113 said:

Yup.

Too funny watching these threads. 

Just paint it the color that appeals to you the most , and tell the naysayers they are wrong.

IMG-4822.jpg

That looks very nice 👍 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I use Misterkit for all my WWI colours.

I think it's pretty well accepted that PC10 was a green that faded towards brown, and PC12 started more towards brown. (Like the PC10 early shown above). Then there was also the tropical dope which was more of a chocolate brown. So basically do whatever you think looks good, there's no one left to prove you wrong!

Don't forget the primary reason for these dopes was fabric protection, not camouflage! 

 

Ian

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

From what I read about PC10 was that the early aircraft were painted with a formula made with lamp black and ochre imported from Spain.  This produced a shade more towards the green side.  Later on because of problems obtaining Spanish ochre, British ochre was substituted. This tended to shift the color towards the khaki hue.

Anyone willing to experiment with mixing both types of ochre with lamp black using the original published ratios?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

I know It is an old thread, but just wanted to add this small colour tech about "adding black".
Yellow is a relatively weak pigment. Black is a very strong one (as red is too).
Adding black robs lightness and chroma. When you add black to "yellowish" base paint, you actually take away more yellow than anything else.
Thats why "green" emerges.

Yellow and black gives yellowgreen to dark green. This is how zinc chromate green (interior green) is formed.

Ochre is a mixture of different ferric oxides. The more Fe2o3 is added to the ochre the more orange it becomes and eventually red ochre emerges.

Pure yellow oxide will give a bright olive drab when mixed with some black. "Yellow Ochre" is usually less yellow and Raw Sienna for example is a reddish variant of ochre.
Mixing raw sienna with black will render "khaki" olive drabs. This is what I have in mind when talking PC10...

Note that literature mentions the amount of Fe2o3 was set at "minimum 30%" in the ochre to use for PC10.
2 things are to be learned in my honest opinion:
- the minimum means a (bright) dominantly "green" olive drab was not the mission when mixing PC10

- variations were allowed for
 

PC12 might have had a specific pigment mix, but it is clear as day that using a lot of reddish in the ochre will give just as much a redbrown result as a more complex formula.
The only real difference will be chroma. Mixing ochre with umber, red and blue will give a more greyish result.

 

201259482_199996941994339_43590747485799

Edited by Steben
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I recall reading somewhere that PC10 tended toward green and PC12 tended toward brown, by can’t remember where I read it, possibly an issue of Windsock, so don’t quote me! 😁

 

I’ve also read that the discontinued Humbrol “Brown Bess” was a good representation of PC 10, but good luck in finding any tins of it.

Edited by Space Ranger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a habit of retaining and regurgitating odd snippets of information that I've read over the years (something to do with the way my brain works due to being ASC). Anyway, back in the recesses of the grey cells I remember having read that Olive Drab was descended from PC10, so I would have thought that the colouration would be more in line with that.

 

I thought I'd have a dig around and found this from 2006 on "the Flying Machine" forum



Finish standarized on all aircraft, October 1918

Only two weeks later, Spec. 24,100-G (October 4, 1918) standarized the use of cellulose acetate dope on all combat and training aircraft. A new requirement stated that the protective covering on all doped fabric was either to be pigmented oil varnish or a pigmented dope.

The pigmented oil varnish was similar to the material then known as olive brown wing enamel, while the pigmented dope was required to be similar to the British PC.10. (This was the first official US Army reference to PC.10.) PC.10 was the British specification for a pigmented cellulose finish (Protective Covering No.10) issued by the Ministry of Munitions in 1916. It consisted of a mixture of yellow ochre and lamp black, giving a dark brown shade. (For full details, see Chapter 6.)

Rather than a specific number of coats of dope being required, the specification required that the weight was not to exceed more than two and seven-tenths ounces per square yard (four coats of dope under normal conditions). External metal fittings were still to be protected by transparent baking varnish, but exterior metal parts and fittings adjacent to a surface painted with olive brown wing enamel could now be similarly painted after assembly and final inspection.

Waivers for trainers, 1918

Although the specification very clearly laid down that all combat and training aircraft were to be painted olive brown all over, it is obvious from studying photographs of the period that this was not complied with on all training aircraft. For example, many Curtiss JN-6s were not finished in olive brown at the Curtiss Buffalo plant. This was because the Bureau of Aircraft Production had issued a waiver allowing the Curtiss Company to continue finishing wings with two coats of spar varnish, as it was not considered necessary to finish them with olive brown wing enamel.

Thus, although the specifications clearly spelled out the requirements, it was possible for companies to get waivers when considered necessary, and this should always be borne in mind when looking at photographs of aircraft that appear to differ from the specified requirements.

After the end of World War I, the Air Service took over control of aircraft production and began a general cleaning up of all applicable specifications. Thus, Spec. 24, 100-H, was issued on October 13, 1919, covering doping. Finishing of airplane parts used on all combat and training aircraft was to Spec. 10,026, while the pigmented oil varnish now had to be similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106.

The requirements for different finishes on combat and training aircraft had been dropped completely, all types were now to be finished in the same manner. For the interior of fuselages, a new requirement stated that the front part around the engine and tanks was to be protected with two coats of a special oil and gasoline resistant coating approved by the Engineering Division of the Air Service.

The method of doping the fabric remained the same as before, except that only one coat was necessary if a spray gun was used to apply the pigmented protective coating. If brushes were used, two coats were to be applied to give the same results. Finally, the insignia were to be painted or sprayed on to the doped surface, with a pigmented dope similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106, or were to be applied by decalcomania transfer to Spec. 24101-A.

 

From other sources, it was mixed in small batches, and those batches could vary in colour. Not only that, but due to weathering, it could vary from a green colour to a chocolate brown in colour (funnily enough almost like the debate on olive drab). Now I'm no expert on WWI, preferring WWII monoplanes and onwards. But, I do read a lot, and retain information so that's based on what I remember. But as usual it's a massive :worms:

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...