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PC10 paint mix and Gunze paints?


AndrewCJ50

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Dear Fellow Modellers

 

I'm sure this is an old subject, what the best paints are for the RFC PC10 colour, but as a confirmed Gunze paint enthusiast I wondered if anyone had advice on a Gunze paint or mix they could offer?

 

Thanks

 

Andrew

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One of the biggest chestnuts in modelling!

 

You've no doubt read any number of the countless explanations of what it was and how it was made by suspending pigments of iron ore and lampblack in cellulose dope. It could vary greatly depending on application, the doping scheme being used, exposure to the elements and the proportion of iron oxide in the red pigment and the presence of other compounds in that pigment.

 

With that out of the way, it shows how the colour of PC10 had enormous variance and for that reason from a modelling perspective you can run with anything from a lightish olive drab to an almost chocolate colour. Personally I think an olive drab shade is a good place to start and depending on whether you want a weathered machine proceed from there.

 

I use Humbrol and have used 66 (for a fairly fresh factory finish) to 155. It's really up to you and the nice thing is that no one can say you're wrong so long as you stick in that general area!

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Though it does'nt provide an exact shade of paint, there's a quote from the late Dan-san Abbott that I've kept filed away:

'The RNAS were not permitted to use PC10, and RFC patent and they developed their own color which was a greenish shade of olive drab.'

 

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

AK-WW1-RFC---RNAS-Aircraft-colors-AK2280

 

regards,

Jack

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7 hours ago, JackG said:

Though it does'nt provide an exact shade of paint, there's a quote from the late Dan-san Abbott that I've kept filed away:

'The RNAS were not permitted to use PC10, and RFC patent and they developed their own color which was a greenish shade of olive drab.'

 

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

AK-WW1-RFC---RNAS-Aircraft-colors-AK2280

 

regards,

Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

It might be my monitor/screen but that shade of PC12 looks nothing like what the colour was! The "late PC10" also looks far too green as well.

 

Always difficult to judge colour from a computer screen but the way those two are showing up, they don't look right.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

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Thanks Tim, personally I would not know what the colours should look like digitally or otherwise.  The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

 

regards,

Jack

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Worth bearing in mind, the current vougue leans towards a greenish shade of khaki, but the terrain most of these things flew over was largely churned up mud. So to my mind, greenish isn't it.  All commercially available PC10s I've seen are far too green, and most of the mixes too.  Can't easily get Gunze paints where I live, so haven't experimented with them.

 

Paul.

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5 hours ago, JackG said:

Thanks Tim, personally I would not know what the colours should look like digitally or otherwise.  The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

 

regards,

Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that the colour did change slightly from the beginning of the war to the end, not so much from the ingredients used but instead quantities and doping schemes being used. Once again though this is a bit like trying to catch a million butterflies in a greenhouse. There was so much variation due to the variables I put in my first post above that there just wasn't any kind of meaningful standardisation in the field. Anyone portraying PC10 as anything ranging from an olive drab to a chocolate brown can't really be told they've done it wrong. It's one of those things that modellers probably overthink!

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

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On 22/03/2019 at 00:00, JackG said:

...but then AK Interactive comes along and labels their PC10 as early and late, ignoring the above??

 

19 hours ago, JackG said:

The AK colours were posted to show how they labeled their PC10 paints as early and late - was there such a thing or is just a modern spin on WW1 colours?

I would treat anything AK has to say on a subject with caution, or look at other references as well. 

AK did a book, Real Colors of WW2,  which looks very impressive,  discussion of this came up in a thread here, and after a bit of searching it turned up a very cavalier attitude to input from a noted expert, and also on the paints tied in with this see here

Given the posts by  @Smithy who is a careful modeller and researcher,  I'd suspect it's cobblers from AK....

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7 hours ago, krow113 said:

Yup.

Too funny watching these threads. 

Just paint it the color that appeals to you the most , and tell the naysayers they are wrong.

IMG-4822.jpg

That looks very nice 👍 

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I use Misterkit for all my WWI colours.

I think it's pretty well accepted that PC10 was a green that faded towards brown, and PC12 started more towards brown. (Like the PC10 early shown above). Then there was also the tropical dope which was more of a chocolate brown. So basically do whatever you think looks good, there's no one left to prove you wrong!

Don't forget the primary reason for these dopes was fabric protection, not camouflage! 

 

Ian

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  • 3 weeks later...

From what I read about PC10 was that the early aircraft were painted with a formula made with lamp black and ochre imported from Spain.  This produced a shade more towards the green side.  Later on because of problems obtaining Spanish ochre, British ochre was substituted. This tended to shift the color towards the khaki hue.

Anyone willing to experiment with mixing both types of ochre with lamp black using the original published ratios?

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  • 2 years later...

I know It is an old thread, but just wanted to add this small colour tech about "adding black".
Yellow is a relatively weak pigment. Black is a very strong one (as red is too).
Adding black robs lightness and chroma. When you add black to "yellowish" base paint, you actually take away more yellow than anything else.
Thats why "green" emerges.

Yellow and black gives yellowgreen to dark green. This is how zinc chromate green (interior green) is formed.

Ochre is a mixture of different ferric oxides. The more Fe2o3 is added to the ochre the more orange it becomes and eventually red ochre emerges.

Pure yellow oxide will give a bright olive drab when mixed with some black. "Yellow Ochre" is usually less yellow and Raw Sienna for example is a reddish variant of ochre.
Mixing raw sienna with black will render "khaki" olive drabs. This is what I have in mind when talking PC10...

Note that literature mentions the amount of Fe2o3 was set at "minimum 30%" in the ochre to use for PC10.
2 things are to be learned in my honest opinion:
- the minimum means a (bright) dominantly "green" olive drab was not the mission when mixing PC10

- variations were allowed for
 

PC12 might have had a specific pigment mix, but it is clear as day that using a lot of reddish in the ochre will give just as much a redbrown result as a more complex formula.
The only real difference will be chroma. Mixing ochre with umber, red and blue will give a more greyish result.

 

201259482_199996941994339_43590747485799

Edited by Steben
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  • 1 month later...

I recall reading somewhere that PC10 tended toward green and PC12 tended toward brown, but can’t remember where I read it, possibly an issue of Windsock, so don’t quote me! 😁

 

I’ve also read that the discontinued Humbrol “Brown Bess” was a good representation of PC 10, but good luck in finding any tins of it.

Edited by Space Ranger
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I have a habit of retaining and regurgitating odd snippets of information that I've read over the years (something to do with the way my brain works due to being ASC). Anyway, back in the recesses of the grey cells I remember having read that Olive Drab was descended from PC10, so I would have thought that the colouration would be more in line with that.

 

I thought I'd have a dig around and found this from 2006 on "the Flying Machine" forum



Finish standarized on all aircraft, October 1918

Only two weeks later, Spec. 24,100-G (October 4, 1918) standarized the use of cellulose acetate dope on all combat and training aircraft. A new requirement stated that the protective covering on all doped fabric was either to be pigmented oil varnish or a pigmented dope.

The pigmented oil varnish was similar to the material then known as olive brown wing enamel, while the pigmented dope was required to be similar to the British PC.10. (This was the first official US Army reference to PC.10.) PC.10 was the British specification for a pigmented cellulose finish (Protective Covering No.10) issued by the Ministry of Munitions in 1916. It consisted of a mixture of yellow ochre and lamp black, giving a dark brown shade. (For full details, see Chapter 6.)

Rather than a specific number of coats of dope being required, the specification required that the weight was not to exceed more than two and seven-tenths ounces per square yard (four coats of dope under normal conditions). External metal fittings were still to be protected by transparent baking varnish, but exterior metal parts and fittings adjacent to a surface painted with olive brown wing enamel could now be similarly painted after assembly and final inspection.

Waivers for trainers, 1918

Although the specification very clearly laid down that all combat and training aircraft were to be painted olive brown all over, it is obvious from studying photographs of the period that this was not complied with on all training aircraft. For example, many Curtiss JN-6s were not finished in olive brown at the Curtiss Buffalo plant. This was because the Bureau of Aircraft Production had issued a waiver allowing the Curtiss Company to continue finishing wings with two coats of spar varnish, as it was not considered necessary to finish them with olive brown wing enamel.

Thus, although the specifications clearly spelled out the requirements, it was possible for companies to get waivers when considered necessary, and this should always be borne in mind when looking at photographs of aircraft that appear to differ from the specified requirements.

After the end of World War I, the Air Service took over control of aircraft production and began a general cleaning up of all applicable specifications. Thus, Spec. 24, 100-H, was issued on October 13, 1919, covering doping. Finishing of airplane parts used on all combat and training aircraft was to Spec. 10,026, while the pigmented oil varnish now had to be similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106.

The requirements for different finishes on combat and training aircraft had been dropped completely, all types were now to be finished in the same manner. For the interior of fuselages, a new requirement stated that the front part around the engine and tanks was to be protected with two coats of a special oil and gasoline resistant coating approved by the Engineering Division of the Air Service.

The method of doping the fabric remained the same as before, except that only one coat was necessary if a spray gun was used to apply the pigmented protective coating. If brushes were used, two coats were to be applied to give the same results. Finally, the insignia were to be painted or sprayed on to the doped surface, with a pigmented dope similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106, or were to be applied by decalcomania transfer to Spec. 24101-A.

 

From other sources, it was mixed in small batches, and those batches could vary in colour. Not only that, but due to weathering, it could vary from a green colour to a chocolate brown in colour (funnily enough almost like the debate on olive drab). Now I'm no expert on WWI, preferring WWII monoplanes and onwards. But, I do read a lot, and retain information so that's based on what I remember. But as usual it's a massive :worms:

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  • 8 months later...
On 04/08/2021 at 15:28, treker_ed said:

I have a habit of retaining and regurgitating odd snippets of information that I've read over the years (something to do with the way my brain works due to being ASC). Anyway, back in the recesses of the grey cells I remember having read that Olive Drab was descended from PC10, so I would have thought that the colouration would be more in line with that.

 

I thought I'd have a dig around and found this from 2006 on "the Flying Machine" forum



Finish standarized on all aircraft, October 1918

Only two weeks later, Spec. 24,100-G (October 4, 1918) standarized the use of cellulose acetate dope on all combat and training aircraft. A new requirement stated that the protective covering on all doped fabric was either to be pigmented oil varnish or a pigmented dope.

The pigmented oil varnish was similar to the material then known as olive brown wing enamel, while the pigmented dope was required to be similar to the British PC.10. (This was the first official US Army reference to PC.10.) PC.10 was the British specification for a pigmented cellulose finish (Protective Covering No.10) issued by the Ministry of Munitions in 1916. It consisted of a mixture of yellow ochre and lamp black, giving a dark brown shade. (For full details, see Chapter 6.)

Rather than a specific number of coats of dope being required, the specification required that the weight was not to exceed more than two and seven-tenths ounces per square yard (four coats of dope under normal conditions). External metal fittings were still to be protected by transparent baking varnish, but exterior metal parts and fittings adjacent to a surface painted with olive brown wing enamel could now be similarly painted after assembly and final inspection.

Waivers for trainers, 1918

Although the specification very clearly laid down that all combat and training aircraft were to be painted olive brown all over, it is obvious from studying photographs of the period that this was not complied with on all training aircraft. For example, many Curtiss JN-6s were not finished in olive brown at the Curtiss Buffalo plant. This was because the Bureau of Aircraft Production had issued a waiver allowing the Curtiss Company to continue finishing wings with two coats of spar varnish, as it was not considered necessary to finish them with olive brown wing enamel.

Thus, although the specifications clearly spelled out the requirements, it was possible for companies to get waivers when considered necessary, and this should always be borne in mind when looking at photographs of aircraft that appear to differ from the specified requirements.

After the end of World War I, the Air Service took over control of aircraft production and began a general cleaning up of all applicable specifications. Thus, Spec. 24, 100-H, was issued on October 13, 1919, covering doping. Finishing of airplane parts used on all combat and training aircraft was to Spec. 10,026, while the pigmented oil varnish now had to be similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106.

The requirements for different finishes on combat and training aircraft had been dropped completely, all types were now to be finished in the same manner. For the interior of fuselages, a new requirement stated that the front part around the engine and tanks was to be protected with two coats of a special oil and gasoline resistant coating approved by the Engineering Division of the Air Service.

The method of doping the fabric remained the same as before, except that only one coat was necessary if a spray gun was used to apply the pigmented protective coating. If brushes were used, two coats were to be applied to give the same results. Finally, the insignia were to be painted or sprayed on to the doped surface, with a pigmented dope similar to Air Service pigmented dope No. 106, or were to be applied by decalcomania transfer to Spec. 24101-A.

 

From other sources, it was mixed in small batches, and those batches could vary in colour. Not only that, but due to weathering, it could vary from a green colour to a chocolate brown in colour (funnily enough almost like the debate on olive drab). Now I'm no expert on WWI, preferring WWII monoplanes and onwards. But, I do read a lot, and retain information so that's based on what I remember. But as usual it's a massive :worms:

 

This excerpt comes from D.Archer's 1908-1941 color guide afaik.
What really got me since I've got a copy of the book is how much focus is put on "brown". And it is not the only source of the "brown" guideline.
The US forces in the late 1910s, early 1920ties mentioned brown, khaki, olive brown, ....
Maybe it is my 4th cone cell, maybe I don't have that at all, maybe it is my focus or attention etc. But to me olive drab has never been a brown or green, but olive drab.
The whole "it must have been brown" storyline is misleading as many have stated over and over. It relies on what someone accepts as brown.
If one mixes green and brown one will get a sort of olive drab. But do we usually call green a blue or yellow which combined make green? turquoise a light blue or a dark yellow?

The new service colour of the British vehicles is called brown by the way, but to be honest I find this one a tan ochre.

Yes, Archer's swatch of PC10 shows a more "brownish" hint than the olive drab 22 swatch has on the same page, but it is still an olive drab, not brown imho. Calling OD a brown or a green depends on other colours next to it. But that can become grey as well. RAL7013 is very strong example of that. With many colours it looks like a warm grey.
Archer's PC10 looks basically like classic US olive drab with a small drop of brown. Is that "dark brown"?

I haven't found until this day a yellow ochre that gives a "dark brown" when mixed with black. An ochre that is redder than raw sienna is a red ochre or a burnt ochre.

Edited by Steben
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As others have pointed out, there was variation in how PC10 appeared.  That said, take a look at Peter Jackson's collection of airworthy WW1 replicas.  Frankly, if anyone has an idea of the right colour for WW1 aircraft, it's Peter Jackson.  He has one of the most comprehensive collections of WW1 artifacts in the world and is pedantic about ensuring his aircraft are as representative as is humanly possible to the aircraft that flew in the Great War.  I'd take my cue from the colours he applies to his aircraft as a decent starting point, and then diverge based on how long the airframe was in operational service (some only lasted a few days) and whether there's photographic evidence to show differences between airframes within that particular squadron.  

 

Just my two penn'orth in an attempt to reduce the amount of over-thinking that can happen when it comes to PC10.

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http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41185&page=32

 

A 32 page thread about whether PC10 was a brown or green...
All based on personal definitions. And probably some mixing up with simply different colours at that time (RNAS).
If one allows diversity in ochre pigmentation and appreciate the interpretation of individuals in giving names when talking about one and the same colour, one must see stating "PC10 was brown" or "PC10 was not brown" and everything in between is useless.
Every olive drab is prone to be called "brown". And this happened to many many US olive drabs. If "dark brown" is clear for anyone and a standard beyond any doubt, PC10 and US olive drab should be the same, since both were called dark brown at a certain point.
Truth is, "brown" is as vague and pointless as any colour. When you mix redorange and black, you get brown. So it is a (black)orange. When you mix red and green you get brown. Is it a (red)green then?
When I look at many PC10 examples or restorations it easy to state it's "kind of brown". But that is a typical 60ties US vehicle as well. RAL8027 is kind of brown. SCC2 is kind of brown.

RAF Museum is pointed out as a reference of definitely having "brown" PC10 artefacts.
But these are not that clear to me. Brown and green are too simple. But mixing brown and green to get "a" PC10 will never fail. A high chroma is probably far worse when talking about PC10 than an exact RGB number.   
L-R-Bristol-M1c-Sopwith-Pup-and-Sopwith-

Edited by Steben
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MRP produces quality acrylic lacquer paints in WWI shades such as PC-8 MRP251, early PC-10 MRP252, late PC-10 MRP MRP253, and PC-12 MRP254. Packaged in 30ML bottles.

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For what it's worth, there is the same contention with WW2 RAF Dark green and Dark Earth. The green was a brownish green, and the Earth was a greenish brown. As far as model paints are concerned, the ONLY brands that capture it are #1 Extracolor Enamels, and second choice are Colour Coats Enamels. No other brand comes close to my eye. ( and for what it's worth again, I am old enough to have seen original painted A/C. )  For our topic, PC10, one needs to find a good compromise between said colours above. The same as WW1 "Service Colour" in the Army. A greenish brown. Basically a paint made out of mud. LOL. This topic has many threads, many opions, and an awful lot of black n white photo's. All we can do is read and re-read the writings that the people who were there at the time have left us, look at the samples of original fabric in such places as the Royal Air Force Museum and the other contempory museums in France, Belgium, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, USA. and read the scant official specs that there were ( not much). We also need to heed the advise of current experts in this minefield such as Richard Andrews ( Aviattic) et al. 

 

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