Spitfire N3192 GR*L Colour Scheme?

[NG899]

Thanks for the clarification on dates and locations Tim. Tuck's log book for 8th June covers the Northolt to Farnborough AFDU to Northolt trip; noting that the aircraft was "..fitted with an accelerometer and stiffed of rudder trim" (that's what the last 4 words look like anyway!) for the test against the BF109E. 

 

9th June at 12:20hrs has him flying P9434 to Hornchurch with "Squadron move to new base" in the remarks column. Which makes this the likely date for the photo.

 

On 16th at 18:00hrs he did 30 mins of "Aerobatics and sighting practice" in P9434, before at 20:10hrs - To Abbeville, Amien and Doulon: "Recce patrol. Shot up at Amien. Rubbed out gun crew at Doulon and fired at mechanised column. Right wing tip badly hit. 

 

On 18th at 11:45 he again flew P9434 this time to Pembrey, with "Squadron move to new base" again being in the remarks column.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

 

[Smithy]

1 hour ago, NG899 said:

On 16th at 18:00hrs he did 30 mins of "Aerobatics and sighting practice" in P9434, before at 20:10hrs - To Abbeville, Amien and Doulon: "Recce patrol. Shot up at Amien. Rubbed out gun crew at Doulon and fired at mechanised column. Right wing tip badly hit. 

 

That recce patrol on the 16th  Nick was one of the first successful  low level attacks by Spits on ground targets and as a result they (it was Tuck, Bob Hollland and Bill Williams who were on it) had to undergo a very long and extensive debrief by fellows from the Air Ministry who were unsurprisingly especially interested in it. Tuck was actually pretty lucky on this op as that right wing lost a whole 2 feet off of the end of it. The newish armour plating also proved it was worth its salt as on return it was seen how it had prevented a lot of shrapnel from hitting Tuck.

[X Trapnel]

What a great haul of information you've all provided.  I'm not sure which is more impressive -- the level of knowledge or the level of effort put into answering my question.  Thanks again.

After all this, I think I'll do the model up as Wright's GR*S.  I've only seen photos of the top side of the aircraft, and wonder if anyone can confirm that this machine likely carried the white/black wings with roundels and silver fuselage scheme underneath.  

[NG899]

Here you go with the information I have on Wright's N3250 GR-S...

 

The photograph of the port rear quarter of this aircraft shows P/O Allan Wright climbing out ofN3250. It is cited as being taken on 2 June 1940 at RAF Hornchurch, after a patrol in which he destroyed a He111 over Dunkirk and had 18 bullet holes added to N3250 by Bf109. Wright’s overalls and the trestles may indicate a posed photograph? (The copy of the photo I have seen is in ‘Spitfire’ by Andy Saunders, p47). Details... (See also FunDekals Spitfires Pt 2.)

 

N3250 was built by Supermarine at Eastleigh and first flew on 21 December 1939. It was delivered from Supermarine directly to 92 Sqn on 20 March 1940 and stayed with them until 16 July, when it went to 7 OTU.

 

It had the Type A camouflage pattern on the upper surfaces. From its serial number and production date, the undersides should have been wholly black to port and white to starboard; but the photograph clearly shows the fuselage to have been silver underneath and there is no black visible on the end of the tailplane, with the elevator selected down. It may be safe to work on the basis that, between its first flight and its delivery to 92 Sqn, N3250's undersides of the cowling, fuselage aft of the wings and tailplanes were repainted aluminium.  Note: FunDekals Spitfires Pt.2 depicts its sister aircraft N3249 GR-P with the original wholly black and white undersides. However, N3249 went to 92 Sqn via 27 MU, where it was delivered on 29 December 1939, so would not have had the chance for a factory repaint. N3249 also arrived at 92 Sqn on 20 March.

 

Which under sides scheme to do for your model? Personally, I'd follow the photographic evidence and do the cowling fuselage and tailplane undersides in aluminium. 

 

(Winding the clock forward to Nov/Dec 1940, I have a photo of a 74 Sqn Spitfire II, possibly P7352, possibly coded ZP-P, possibly the one in which Flt Lt John Mungo-Park shared in the downing of Biggin Hill's 600th kill with F/O Harborne Stephens. It clearly shows the aircraft with a newly spray-applied black underside to the port side of the nose cowling; this at a time when only the undersides of the port wing were supposed to have received the black colour! No doubt some erk who remembered the early 1940 black and white scheme got carried away!)

 

The fuselage roundel dimensions for N3250 are:

Red 6 inches in diameter - based on analysis of the side-on photograph of P9450 taken in April 1940, where 7 inches would be wider than that apparent in the photo.

White 21 inches in diameter - no change to the standard width for this segment; see below

Blue 31 inches in diameter - a narrower blue ring caused by how the yellow ring has been applied; see below

Yellow 39 inches in diameter - the yellow ring is 4 inches wide and, from the location of the stencil for the "First Aid Or Ballast" on the square hatch on the port side, the yellow overlaps the blue by 2 inches. This accounts for the odd proportions of the 92 Sqn roundels, which many decal manufacturers have wrongly depicted by widening the white segment, e.g. for some of the decals produced in the past for N3290 GR-U. 

 

Allowing for perspective, N3250's GR medium sea grey codes scale at 33 inches high, 22 inches wide and 4 inches thick. The S code letter is likely to be the same dimensions; although some decal manufacturers suggest the individual aircraft code on some 92 Sqn Spitfires was 30 inches high, 20 inches wide and 4 inches thick. As for the fin stripes, I'd go for 6 inches wide with the red leading; a common dimension used on 92 Sqn Spitfires in May/June 1940 before the later 7 inches wide stripes were standardised. There appears to be a square gas detection patch on the port upper wing in an unusual location; part of it can just be seen by Wright's shadow. Alternative this could be a damage repair patch; see also the pale area on the lower cowling's dark green paint.

 

Upper wing roundels would have been 55 inches diameter red/blue ones. The under wing roundels would be 50 inches in diameter, centred 6 feet from the wing tip, red/white/blue. The port roundel may have had a thin yellow outer edge applied to it, as shown by FunDekals for N3249, or it may not; I have seen another contemporary Spitfire on 92 Sqn without the yellow ring on its port under wing roundel. The roundels would have been applied over the "..wing tip steadying trestle" stencils, so the bits of those stencils not covered by the roundel would still have been visible. As the roundels were applied quickly on the squadron, it is 'unlikely' that the stencil would have been reapplied over them. Photographs seem to bear this out.

 

N3250 appears to have had the seat armour fitted, which Tuck's biography states wasn't fitted until 4 June onwards; calling the date of the photo into question. (See Tim's comments on the dates above.) The voltage regulator appears to have been fitted behind the headrest. It was unlikely that a rear view mirror was fitted; again referring to photos of other 92 Sqn Spitfires at that time; see the photo of GR-U you provided above. There would have been a wire aerial from the fuselage to the fin, via the aerial mast's prong but NO, repeat NO, IFF aerials from the rear fuselage to the tailplane tips. The ailerons would have been the fabric covered.

 

That's all I have, I hope it helps. Good luck!

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by NG899

[Smithy]

2 hours ago, NG899 said:

This accounts for the odd proportions of the 92 Sqn roundels, which many decal manufacturers have wrongly depicted by widening the white segment, e.g. for some of the decals produced in the past for N3290 GR-U.

 

Nick, fuselage roundels for 92 are tricky during this period as there wasn't standardisation within the squadron. The widened white segment is actually correct for several of 92's Spits including N3290 where the white part of the roundel was widened and the blue section thinned. This can be seen in photographs of N3290. N3249 was another with the widened white section.

 

Just one other thing and this is just my personal opinion (but I think it's borne out in the documentation and photos of 92's Spits at this time) I'd paint the undersides of N3250 GR-S half white and half black. The factory finish on Spitfires from April 1939 to June 1940 was the Night/White special recognition marking and this was how they were delivered to 92. The variation on the Night/White special recognition marking including aluminium on the underside of the cowling and rear fuselage underside was reserved for those aircraft in service which had been delivered with Aluminium undersides - something that a Spitfire built after April 1939 couldn't have been.

 

Apart from those small things I think you've probably nailed it for what X Trapnel needs to model GR-S.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

Edited March 21, 2019 by Smithy

[NG899]

Hi Tim,

 

I will reply more fully in the next few days but, quickly...

 

N3249 QJ-P, ex GR-P, in the famous image of it belly landed in Aug 1940 has the same roundel dimensions as N3250 GR-S.

 

Ted Hooton’s Spitfire article in the Nov 1982 SAM, details when the overall black/ white undersides replaces the black/white/aluminium undersides and when those again were used. P9450 on test flight in April 1940 from Supermarine’s clearly has the 3-colour undersides. 

 

I dont have access to that to that article right now, but will summarise it when I can. As far as I know, what Ted Hooton said in it has not been disproven, though new photos do show some anomalies around where the changeovers occurred. They include the clearly not black fuselage undersides on N3250 GR-S; that photo can be seen on the internet via a search of 92 Sqn Spitfires. I always go with what the photos show, rather than what the scheme is supposed to have been.

 

More to follow when back fully on line...

 

Cheers

 

Nick

Edited March 21, 2019 by NG899

[Smithy]

13 minutes ago, NG899 said:

Hi Tim,

 

I will reply more fully in the next few days but, quickly...

 

N3249 QJ-P, ex GR-P, in the famous image of it belly landed in Aug 1940 has the same roundel dimensions as N3250 GR-S.

 

Ted Hooton’s Spitfirecarticlebin the Nov 1982 SAM, details when the overall black/ white undersides replaces the black/white/aluminium undersides and when those again were used. P9450 on test flight in April 1940 from Supermarine’s clearly has the 3-colour undersides. 

 

I dont have access to that to that article right now, but will summarise it when I can. As far as I know, what Ted Hooton said in it has not been disproven, though new photos do show some anomalies around where the changeovers occurred. They include the clearly not black fuselage undersides on N3250 GR-S; that photo can be seen on the internet via a search of 92 Sqn Spitfires. I always go with what the photos show, rather than what the scheme is supposed to have been.

 

More to follow when back fully on line...

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

Hi Nick,

 

I have three different photos of Tich's force landing, two are very high resolution. Whilst the white is not as wide as on N3290, the white section is wider and the blue narrow than on some of 92's other aircraft. It might be splitting hairs slightly but it's noticeable on an enlarged image. N3290 definitely had a much wider white section and correspondingly narrower blue section as witnessed in photos of the airframe.

 

In terms of Night/White wings with aluminium, I've had a quick look through and you're right there's several airframes which show it. GR-W, GR-G, GR-S and GR-Z. Silly how you can look at photos umpteen times and don't notice something - thanks for pointing that out.

 

Interestingly on another tangent, I have two photos of Tuck with GR-W at this time and one where he is climbing into or out of the aircraft. It's a possibility that Tuck's P9434 was W rather than U.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[NPL]

1 hour ago, Smithy said:

 

 

Interestingly on another tangent, I have two photos of Tuck with GR-W at this time and one where he is climbing into or out of the aircraft. It's a possibility that Tuck's P9434 was W rather than U.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

 

Maybe, but could it not be the case that he flew more than one at this time?

Edited March 22, 2019 by NPL

[AndyL]

On 3/20/2019 at 7:24 AM, Grey Beema said:

No not at all, I was using the Serial to illustrate my point (Serial numbers are unique whereas over time Sqn codes may appear on several aircraft). 

 

The only way you have of proving the aircraft that carried the GR°U code is to either find an official record that ties a serial number to the aircraft letter or one of the pilots log books (as said by Smithy) or a photograph (which is what you are trying to do) but do not assume, if you find two photos of GR°U, that they are the same aircraft unless you can read the serial number.

 

The ORBs often have only part of the information.  

I am trying to identify a 213 Sqn Hurricane flown by S/Lt Jeram on 11 & 12.08.40.  The ORB identifies the aircraft as AK°U but does not state the serial.  19 Sqn ORB gives serials by not aircraft code (which seems to be the norm).

I am also trying to identify any of the 29 Sqn Mosquito XIIIs flown by Lt D Price and SLt Armitage 06.44 - 09.44 but the ORB only gives 'Mosquito XIII' not a serial or aircraft letter....

 

Not much help I know but good luck with your search...

I could always ask Jeram's son for you as I had some contact with him a couple of years ago. 

[Grey Beema]

6 hours ago, AndyL said:

I could always ask Jeram's son for you as I had some contact with him a couple of years ago. 

Thanks Andy but I have been in contact.  He told me that unfortunately they do not have his log books and do not know where they are.

 

Thanks to @Smithy who pointed out to me that one of Jeram's Hurricanes was identified in Aces of the Royal Navy - talk of info right under your nose, that book inspired my collection.  P3585/AK*Q which he was flying 12.08.40 to destroy a Me110 is probably the aircraft I'll end up doing but would have preferred AK*U which seemed to be his usual machine, if only I could find the serial number...

[Smithy]

7 hours ago, NPL said:

 

Maybe, but could it not be the case that he flew more than one at this time?

 

NPL, of course like everyone he flew different aircraft but like all senior pilots he had airframes which he favoured over periods of operations. Over the period we are talking about Tuck flew the Spitfire N9434 almost exclusively and therefore it's a subject of speculation about what this airframe was coded. 

 

Incidentally Nick, I was having a look through some other things and Paul Lucas postulates that N9434 could have been W. W was another of your aircraft with the unit applied Night/White wings over aluminium undersides. It is interesting though that more photos exist of Tuck with W than with U.

[NG899]

Thanks for the additional info everyone. I have my own theory on GR-W, but am keeping this to myself for now, that being the likely subject of my 1/24th scale model which is a slow build. I hope you all understand.

 

On the production colours of Spitfires 1939-1940, summarising Ted Hooton's article...

 

Upper surfaces > Supermarine aircraft - the most common "rule" was serials ending with even numbers had the A Scheme, serials ending with odd numbers had the B Scheme.

BUT, for the following aircraft the reverse rule applied A odd / B even:

 

K9787-9882 > Built May 38 to Feb 29

K9888-9891 > Late Jan 39 

N3160-3203 > Nov 39

N3264-3295 > Late Dec 39 to Jan 40

P9557-9565 > Jun-Jul 40

R6751-R6780 > Jun 40, the rule may have changed slightly before R6751, but not confirmed (in Nov 82)

R6799-6800 > Jun 40

R6804-6818 > Jun 40

R6829-6840 > Jun 40

R6879- > R6879 had an A Scheme but it's impossible to state when the common "rule" returned, maybe by R6880, certainly by R6904.

 

The common rule of A even / B odd continued until after X4912 in Dec 40 when the A Scheme was applied to all aircraft.

 

There were differences for the Castle Bromwich produced Spitfires, the basic rule being alternated for each batch...

A even / B odd > P7350-7389; 7490-7509; 7590-7629; 7730-7759.

A odd / B even > P7280-7329; 7420-7449; 7520-7569; 7660-7699; 7770-7789.

From P7810 onwards, which saw service after 1940, the A Scheme was applied to all. Castle Bromwich aircraft had a different demarcation between the green and browns on the cowling from Supermarine aircraft.

 

Under Surface Production Colours - Four main headings apply:

a) Aluminium (silver) paint > Initial scheme with underwing serials 12 inches high. This scheme lasted until about K9960. NOTE: Between March and May 1939, these aircraft had their undersides repainted black and white but NOT their ailerons and elevators; due to the task of rebalancing them. All stencils markings were covered over and serials were not reapplied.

b) Black/White > ALL port sides were 'Night' black, ALL starboard sides white, the dividing lines was along the fuselage centre-line. Used from about K9961 up to about K9999, possibly up to L1017, but excluding L1007. Serial numbers applied in white on the black wing and black on the white one. This scheme was reintroduced after the War began at about N3033 up to about P9373, without underwing serials. NOTE: Photos which may not have been available in Nov 1982, disprove this; e.g. of 92 Sqn's N3250, N3194, etc. My mantra is "CHECK YOUR REFERENCES!!!"

c) Black/White/Aluminium > Here the undersides of the fuselage either side of the where the leading and trailing edges of the wings crossed it were painted aluminium, as were tailplanes and elevator undersides. Used from about L1000/L1018, including L1007, to about N3032, with underwing serials as for b) above. This scheme was reintroduced in February 1940 at about P9374 and lasted until June at about R6722, minus under wing serials but with full stencils - black on white and vice-versa; black on aluminium. By 1940, Hooton states that any surviving aircraft from earlier schemes should have had this scheme applied either on the Sqn or at MUs; but not all did, leading to many odd combinations being seen. Meaning the mantra still applies: "CHECK YOUR REFERENCES!!!"

d) Sky > Applied to Supermarine aircraft on the line from about P9557 and about R6571-4. For Castle Bromwich aircraft from P7282 onwards.

 

One final note from me - undercarriage bays and wheel wells > While the circular wheel wells were probably the same as the underside colour, where aluminium undersides were overpainted black/white, not all wheel wells appear to have been painted. This also may apply to the black/white/aluminium undersides on P9450, where photos indicate it's possible that the wheel wells were left in aluminium paint too. The straight-sided areas where the upper legs tucked into the wings, which are a mass of smaller frames in real life and not boxes, were left aluminium coloured, up until the arrival of Sky onto the production lines.

 

I hope that helps

 

Cheers

 

Nick

 

 

 

[Smithy]

Good stuff Nick thanks for posting that.

[Seahawk]

That was a cracking article from Ted, unlike so many nowadays that have to be wrung hard to yield even a trickle of new info.  The Geoff Thomas article on British camouflage and markings in the Far East was another such gem.

[Krechi]

On 3/17/2019 at 5:31 PM, X Trapnel said:

A new DK Decals Spitfire Mk.i sheet (link below) includes an option for N3192, GR*L.  My due diligence internet search has failed to come up with any photos of the aircraft, and I wonder if any of my far more knowledgeable Britmodeller colleagues might have any further information on whether this scheme is accurate. 

I’m wondering if GR*L might be the largely obscured Spitfire in the photo link below of the the three Spitfires that escorted Churchill to Paris during the Battle of France.

Thanks as always for any insights on this, and please forgive the use of links - my phone does not seem to want to post any photos now.  

 

http://www.dkdecals.cz/48018%20SpitI_IIAces%201_48_ZS.jpg

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235051650-92-squadron-spitfires-mk-is-pics/

Hi,

R.S. Tuck was flying at 92sq. 23 different Spitfire, but only 3 had as their personal and has more flights.

The first was the N3192 GR-L, which flew from May 9,1940 to June 4, 1940 - 24 flights
The second was the P9434 GR-U, which flew from June 7, 1940 to July 11, 1940 - 29 flights
The third was the N3040 QJ-Z, which flew from July 25, 1940 to August 18, 1940 - 14 flights

All verified according to ORB and the Log Book R.S. Tuck

Other well-known S / N and Tuck Spitfire code letters:
N3285 GR-R
N3290 GR-U
N3248 GR-Y
N3249 GR-P
P9371 GR-W
N3193 GR-T
R6596 GR-S
X4422 GR-T
R6616 QJ-X
N3268 QJ-Y
R6613 QJ-R