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A second AoA sensor was optional and would have apparently cost an additional $80,000.  Neither airline chose to add it.

 Another point: The crew did not reduce from TO power setting of 94% after takeoff.

Both crew members were trying to solve the problem, not one flying and one dealing with the problem.

To fly in the RH seat, at least in Canada, you must have a minimum of 1500 hours.

Boeing and the airlines made decisions to maximize the bottom line, not safety.

Requiescat in pace

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This is such a damning article. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/06/720553748/boeing-knew-about-737-max-sensor-problem-before-plane-crash-in-indonesia

 

How can such quality issues happen under same executives? Boeing had issues with 787 as well. So this is a question mark on their quality and reliability. But knowing Boeing, their long arms and their deep pockets, the will get through such sloppy stuff. 

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Been reading the threads over on pprune.  Plenty of back and forth and 3 (temporarily) closed threads, but, there is information in there.

 

RIP to those who lost their lives.  My condolences to the families.

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Interesting and disturbing to me read.

 

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/621879-max-s-return-delayed-faa-reevaluation-737-safety-procedures-6.html#post10484403

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Posted (edited)

I cannot believe that a Boeing vice president, one Mike Sinnett, told an American Pilots Association meeting that the presence of MCAS wasn’t notified to pilots “so as not to overload them with information about something they might encounter once in a million miles” (my paraphrase).  346 people found out the hard way that MCAS could kill them at any point in that one million miles and yet Boeing still sat on the information.

 

Now, this morning, we have a disclosure about defective slat tracks on 737NG and Max aircraft: how long has Boeing known about this issue and when were they thinking of making this information available to those who need to know, let alone the travelling public?

 

After the loss of Herald of Free Enterprise in 1987 an attempt was made to change UK legislation to bring in a charge of corporate manslaughter: I don’t recall a case for it being successfully prosecuted and, somehow, I can’t see such an eventuality befalling any executive of a “We’re Greater Than God”, all-American “icon” like Boeing.  Just call me cynical......

Edited by stever219
%@#£*”$§€^ auto-incorrect AGAIN!!!!!!

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Hello stever219

I see your cynicism and I raise it with mine: do you think that in normal circumstances one company, no matter how deep into delusion of grandeur its management and its main shareholders may sink, could really act as it pleases regardless of consequences?

 

A rhetorical question for entirely different forum so I am switching back into model building mode now. Cheers

Jure

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On 03/06/2019 at 10:16, stever219 said:

 

After the loss of Herald of Free Enterprise in 1987 an attempt was made to change UK legislation to bring in a charge of corporate manslaughter: I don’t recall a case for it being successfully prosecuted and, somehow, I can’t see such an eventuality befalling any executive of a “We’re Greater Than God”, all-American “icon” like Boeing.  Just call me cynical......

I share your cynicism ... but I think the reason no prosecutions seem to have been made might be the that if an airliner built in country A carrying passengers and crew from countries H, I, J, K, L, M ....  through to ZZ crashes in country B, which country’s legislation applies?  I have a nasty feeling the only outcome would be lawyers growing fat on fees they charge while wrangling over that.

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Reported on SKY News yesterday IAG have ordered 200 of these.

Wonder if passenger numbers will fall given the reaction of the number of people who won't set foot in one.

As has been reported more people are asking what kind of aircraft they will be flying in.

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I've already flown on one and lived to tell the tale and I'd get on one again.  However that being said, I'll try to avoid them where possible until I'm satisfied the fault is fixed (a year or two).    And I prefer A320s anyway, I feel less cramped on them, so that's another reason to avoid not just the MAX but any other 737 version.

 

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23 hours ago, camper1 said:

Reported on SKY News yesterday IAG have ordered 200 of these.

Wonder if passenger numbers will fall given the reaction of the number of people who won't set foot in one.

As has been reported more people are asking what kind of aircraft they will be flying in.

Some of these are MAX-10s which are longer. The stretch counterbalances the engine move, so MCAS is not in the equation. By the time deliveries of any new -8s are made, the problem will have been fixed anyway.

No help to those killed, and still no excuse for Boeing or the FAA.

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Posted (edited)

Dont know if this was posted.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-05-09/former-boeing-engineers-say-relentless-cost-cutting-sacrificed-safety

 

So the engineers/designers had to avoid creating systems that would require level D sim training.

 

I am very curious to know when the MCAS changed from 0.6 to 2.5 and who knew? Was this change communicated through proper channels?

 

I've been looking for more from Rick Ludtke and others.

 

Domenic Gates looks to have an interesting twitter feed.

https://twitter.com/dominicgates

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by NoSG0

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On 6/6/2019 at 10:23 AM, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello stever219

I see your cynicism and I raise it with mine: do you think that in normal circumstances one company, no matter how deep into delusion of grandeur its management and its main shareholders may sink, could really act as it pleases regardless of consequences?

 

A rhetorical question for entirely different forum so I am switching back into model building mode now. Cheers

Jure

Sorry Jure but US industry has form: Ford decided that it was cheaper to pay compensation to the victims and relatives of its fatally-flammaby-flawed Pinto model than to redesign the wretched vehicle to make it safe after it was discovered that a rear-end shunt would often rupture the fuel tank, decanting its contents onto a hot exhaust pipe or into the hot engine bay if the vehicle that hit it.

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The Bloomberg post article makes frankly sobering reading. A world where share value is more important than safety & integrity. What ever happened to shareholder ethics in a case such as this. I'm guessing its easy to ignore such things when your shares are in the hands of a fund manager, those handmaidens of profit before ethics & honesty.

Steve.

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 10:10 AM, camper1 said:

ordered

Letter of intent for 200 . That's not an order . Boeing has 4,000 ish MAX on order and yet  to be built  . If IAG convert that letter to a firm order for 200 it will be so long from now . Most people will have forgotten and IAG will be up the queue when it's time to replace their fleet . If the MAX turns to rats because of the cost of retraining in a simulator ..The selling point of the MAX to compete quickly with the Airbus Neo. Only ONE MAX simulator and that's  in Canada . Should be a doddle to get all the crews on that . Operators are going to be wanting the training money from Boeing . All these 737 MAX being built and stockpiled …. How long will it take assuming the software is acceptable ,get the Pilots up to speed in simulators , get the flight shed to get them up in the air ,test etc. How is this ever going to be a quick job ? How long can Boeing keep building more . Simulator manufacturers aren't the quickest, never had to be .  How many would they have to build or could they alter an  737NG (is there one ? )  sim software to MAX simulation ? Can anyone see a happy end to it all ? Boeing is bleeding money ,figures must be staggering .

 

Sleepless in Seattle … You can bet they are

Edited by bzn20

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Deliveries were quoted as 2022 through to 2027.

Your comments about retraining several hundred A320 pilots went through my mind as to why any airline would want such costs in the present day environment.

Willie Walsh has had fallings out with Airbus and Rolls Royce over the Trent engine which is why it is reported he went off in the huff and ordered more of the new upgraded 777s,which is another unproven design as yet.

Personally I prefer the A320 series, nicer to fly in.

 

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True, stever219, but its arrogance costed Ford dearly both in disproportionately high damages and in costs of recall, not to mention what Pinto did to company's reputation. I do not see anything similar happening in 737 MAX case. Insiders, and insightful outsiders, noted the situation but the general public remains indifferent. On institutional level some cosmetic changes may follow, but nothing significant. Cheers

Jure

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@Jure Miljevic, I wonder that when this ends up in court as it surely must & the news media start climbing all over it as they surely will, just how indifferent the general public will remain then, especially the travelling public?

Steve.

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An article from the Seattle Times last Friday that sheds some light on the history of the MCAS mods to the B737MAX

 

www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the-inside-story-of-mcas-how-boeings-737-max-system-gained-power-and-lost-safeguards/

 

Seems money is at the bottom of it in all sorts of ways.

Edited by EwenS

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Hello Steve

It is probably evident from my previous posts that I am not very optimistic about it. I would not mind being proven wrong, though. Wait and see? Cheers

Jure

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