VMA131Marine Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 As I understand it, and I have a Ph.D. in aerospace engineering so I think I understand it pretty well, the problem with the 737 MAX is that the new engine nacelles change the pitching moment of the aircraft at high angles of attack. Certification requirements require that the pilots stick force increase as angle attack increases. In the 737 MAX, the engine nacelles change the shape of stick force curve so that the stick force actually starts to decrease the more the pilot pulls. Boeing implemented MCAS to solve this problem by automatically inputting up to 2.5 degrees of nose down trim using the horizontal stabiliser. Previous posts have noted that MCAS is only supposed to be activated when certain conditions are met and the flight crew can manually override and even disable the automatic trim inputs if they are aware of what's going on. In the earlier Lion Air crash, the MCAS was apparently reading angle of attack from a faulty sensor and so was making erroneous nose down trim inputs. It did this on at least three flights before the accident flight, but the flight crews were able to disable it and complete the flights without incident. The fourth crew was not able to do this. The big question about the Ethiopian flight is whether there was a similar hardware failure that similarly caused erroneous inputs from the MCAS or if there is another and different failure mode. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 25 minutes ago, VMA131Marine said: In the 737 MAX, the engine nacelles change the shape of stick force curve so that the stick force actually starts to decrease the more the pilot pulls. Boeing implemented MCAS to solve this problem by automatically inputting up to 2.5 degrees of nose down trim using the horizontal stabiliser. Got it, so it's counterintuitive control feedback and not some nose-up tendancy near AoAcritical. Boeing is trying to artificially mask misleading control forces with the MCAS system. I understand the AoA measurement for MCAS is from a single sensor too so there is no voting or redundancy in it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VMA131Marine Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: Got it, so it's counterintuitive control feedback and not some nose-up tendancy near AoAcritical. Boeing is trying to artificially mask misleading control forces with the MCAS system. I understand the AoA measurement for MCAS is from a single sensor too so there is no voting or redundancy in it. Yes, exactly! From what I have read, the MCAS gets its input from a single AoA sensor but it switches inputs between two of the AoA sensors every time the system resets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 hours ago, bzn20 said: The second grounding was for the engine mount pins . That was found to be bad practices ,not IAW the DC-10 Maintenance Manual but fitting the engines in the hangar in service ,which is human error . That was lifting the engine with a forklift putting one pin in and the engine was hanging by one pin and then forked up to locate the second pin which overloaded the first pin , taking the whole engine weight . American Airlines Flight 191 Chicago O'Hare 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 bzn20, that was my point. Conflict between desire for new and commonality with previous version, necessary for certification purposes and as a selling point is bound to produce more compromises with every new version. With B737 Boeing was more than successful, after all this type is in production for more then fifty years. The only other airliner I can think of that had been produced for about as long is Antonov An-2, although there is hardly any other comparison between types. In my opinion B737's successor is long overdue. Obviously Boeing has other ideas. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Stu_davros said: The modified airframe does not require a brand new type certificate, most aircraft types evolve like this over time. It seems to have evolved past the point of the basic airframe. The 737 is one of the the greats but the latest iteration is killing people. Boeing tried to compensate with software. Read bma131marine and bhouse's comments again. Military aircraft are long designed to be unstable compensated by computers. Perhaps Boeing has slipped up on this one. Edited March 14, 2019 by noelh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I gotta say this discussion is totally fascinating with the amount of information being shared, although it's sad that human lives were lost in order to bring the topic to light (publicly). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Alpha Yankee Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 On 3/14/2019 at 10:36 AM, hovis said: This won't have any bearing on the Poseidon will it? None what so ever, the Poseidon is based on the Max's predecessor, the 737-800 which does not use the system causing this grief. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Lyttle Posted March 15, 2019 Author Share Posted March 15, 2019 Fascinating stuff indeed, and thanks everyone for the information and insights on the subject, albeit as @whiskey rightly points out, the outcome and consequences of it is human tragedies in the hundreds, for those gone and those left behind to mourn. I'm sorry for them, as I'm sure we all are. As a bit of a duffer, what is the Poseidon?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hovis Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, rob Lyttle said: As a bit of a duffer, what is the Poseidon?? It's the replacement for Nimrod the RAF are getting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 hours ago, rob Lyttle said: what is the Poseidon?? Boeing P-8 Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 On 3/14/2019 at 10:25 PM, noelh said: Perhaps Boeing has slipped up on this one. You can say that again. Perhaps it SHOULD have had a new type cert. The CofG isn't where it should be ( hardly a small thing) and that's the quick fix reason for the problems . From what I've read there doesn't seem to be any info passed to crews that the software will do things their previous 737 didn't , flick switch on checklist and forget . So what were the pilots expected to do when everything they did produced a different reaction to the 737 NG or any other planes they'd flown ? It's unbelievable what Boeing has done , it's so far away from flight safety for a manufacturer as you can get. Have to wait for the Black box results . 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) I do not Claim any Expertise in the Topic, but with around 350 MAX's delivered and flying, it's hard to believe that the MCAS is a General Problem - otherwise the grounding would have occured Long before due to Pilot complaints about erratic/unpredictable/dangerous behaviour. Apparently it takes one or more other preconditions to be met, like the faulty AoA sensor on the Lion Air plane. I haven’t followed that examination - has it been found out why the preceding Lion Air crews were able to cope with the defective sensor/its effects - when supposedly the procedure to disengage MCAS was not publicized in the manual - while the final crew weren’t? Could the sensor have deteriorated to a point that its readings‘ effects on MCAS could not be compensated any more? In the end, it could well be that a relatively „trivial“ (for lack of a better expression, in connection with some 350 casualties) reason like a faulty batch of sensors or a design fault in it is to blame. Possibly reliance on two sensors could mitigate some effects, but what if both are faulty... Edited March 19, 2019 by tempestfan Adding some thoughts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stalal Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) Reading through the articles on this issue, it seems Boeing wanted to hasten this plane into market. Boeing is a large corporation and has influence with regulators and government. So it did not fully test new systems and forced FAA to give it favorable ratings. The manuals from Boeing it seems did not fully explain the features and pilots were not fully aware of these new features. Its unfortunate but when a corporation's profits become bigger than many developing countries budget, its overwhelming influence invariably breeds corruption. A lot of issues came through in development of 787 as well. The most dangerous one was its lithium batteries overheating to a dangerous level. Edited March 19, 2019 by stalal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzn20 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, tempestfan said: but what if both are faulty It should have a back up sensor ,maybe 3 in total would be better . Then like some Autopilot systems that have 3 streams of info and if one drops it's out voted by the other 2 all done automatically . Hope that's not confusing ,bit difficult to describe . have 2 out of action would be unusual ,3 is belts and braces . I'll add I'm airframes not avionics so if there is anyone on here who is might like to comment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomohawk Kid Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 An interesting and pragmatic article on MSN News: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/boeings-737-max-1960s-design-1990s-computing-power-and-paper-manuals/ar-BBVKBs4?li=AAnZ9Ug&ocid=wispr Tommo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Good article. I would say Boeing are little different to other manufacturers of machinery:- Only change what you have to if it saves money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomohawk Kid Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said: Good article. I would say Boeing are little different to other manufacturers of machinery:- Only change what you have to if it saves money. That's true to a point, but there is only so much one can build on 50 year technology, furthermore aeroplanes are somewhat different than tractors. I cancelled a flight from Cebu to Singapore with Singapore Airlines this coming May because they were operating the 737 Max on that route, not because I had any qualms but because I have severe doubts the 737 Max will be declared airworthy by then and I don't want to be stuck in Cebu. So I transferred to Cathy Pacific who fly Airbus on that route albeit with a change in Hong Kong. To balance the debate the best airliner I have flown on is the B. 787-100, from Manchester to Abu Dhabi, I loved the photo chromatic windows and extra space and the iPhone style remote control for the in-flight entertainment. But, I dread seeing the B.777-300ER on my flight itinerary. Tommo Edited April 9, 2019 by The Tomohawk Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 The 787 is a very comfortable plane, but I have done long haul on a 777 with no qualms. I flew in a 737-300 that eventually ended up in the Red Sea with all souls lost. It appears maintenance is optional in the far east. My nephew flew for a Cambodian outfit in A320s, Was instructed to take a load of Pax to Beijing with a faulty engine control computer (it had back ups). On the return leg the right engine compressor ran away on approach. He was not best pleased with a full a/c. Whilst on his next leave, he changed jobs to a Qantas owned Vietnamese airline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whofan Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I've no qualms about the 777, either. Went to Florida last year ( and return ) on a BA 777 which was comfortable, the food perhaps not so good! a A few years ago we flew to the Maldives on airbus, but came back from Abu Dhabi on a 777 - I'd say the airbus 340 then was perhaps a little more comfortable, but the 777 was fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Not sure if its been said here as there is quite a lot to read through, but, as I understand not only are the engines moved forward but the wing as well! And the FAA approved this change without any further ado. Sounds like Boeing and the FAA have made a big faux pas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 59 minutes ago, The Tomohawk Kid said: ...... the best airliner I have flown on is the B. 787-100, from Manchester to Abu Dhabi, I loved the photo chromatic windows and extra space and the iPhone style remote control for the in-flight entertainment. But, I dread seeing the B.777-300ER on my flight itinerary. Tommo I flew on ANZ 787-900 Auckland to Sydney recently and I enjoyed it too for the same reason; comfort; those windows and nice bit of leg room on a 3 hour flight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomohawk Kid Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 47 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said: . It appears maintenance is optional in the far east. That's incredibly disingenuous. Tommo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomohawk Kid Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Whofan said: I've no qualms about the 777, either. I have no qualms whatsoever about the B.777-300ER, but compared to the A340, A380 and 878-100 it pales into insignificance as regards passenger comfort, even in business class it is cramped and old hat. Tommo. Edited April 9, 2019 by The Tomohawk Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whofan Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, The Tomohawk Kid said: I have no qualms whatsoever about the B.777-300ER, but compared to the A340, A380 and 878-100 it pales into insignificance as regards passenger comfort, even in business class it is cramped and old hat. Tommo. As I said, I found it comfortable enough on the flights I've had and I did point out the A340 was a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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