Current idea of nose wheels added early in a build. Thoughts?

[Ham Hands]

Hello.

I have several models of modern, retired "modern" A/C models by companies such as HobbyBoss, Kitty Hawk, ICM etc. Often the nose wheel is expected to be attached early. This to me looks dangerous, hazardous, foolish and limiting. 

 

I personally consider it a bad idea. I am interested in the thoughts of the members on this subject.

 

Thanks.

 

End rant.

[Procopius]

I also dislike this engineering "quirk", but I've seen what feels like more of it lately. I can only assume that sadomasochism takes many forms.

[Ham Hands]

Indeed.

[Graeme H]

Always thought of it as the worst possible way to build, especially if you need to fill seams.

 

For me it depends if they try and make if the only way by having the what one might call cups built into the sides of the two fuselage halves, in which case I cut off the top of one of the cups with a new scalpel blade,so that I can insert the leg on the side that is complete and then drop the other side of the leg into the cut off cup so it all happens much later in the build.

If it's just something that can't be done any other way without a lot of trouble, and the main landing gear on the Airfix 2 seat Vampire comes to mind, I try my best to get all the sanding done beforehand, managed to not knock it off, but a total PITA

[Giorgio N]

It is a very bad idea, may make things easier for the manufacturer but adds complications to the modeller as the risk of breaking the part while handling the model during the following construction stages is always high. Personally whenever I see this approach I try to modify the part to make adding the part at the end possible. Unfortunately this is not always feasible.

[Ryan Hothersall]

9 hours ago, Ham Hands said:

Hello.

I have several models of modern, retired "modern" A/C models by companies such as HobbyBoss, Kitty Hawk, ICM etc. Often the nose wheel is expected to be attached early. This to me looks dangerous, hazardous, foolish and limiting. 

 

I personally consider it a bad idea. I am interested in the thoughts of the members on this subject.

 

Thanks.

 

End rant.

Yes I agree totally. Put the nose undercarriage on early in a build is asking for it to be broken off. 

 

Things like undercarriage should be added later later in a build. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ryan Hothersall

[spruecutter96]

I've often thought that the folks who design new kits have never actually constructed one. Some of the engineering descisions are baffling, to say the least. Having said that, I guess there are practical limitations imposed when making the moulds, which most of us will be completely unaware of. 

 

Chris. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by spruecutter96
Correcting a typo.

[Ham Hands]

2 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

It is a very bad idea, may make things easier for the manufacturer but adds complications to the modeller as the risk of breaking the part while handling the model during the following construction stages is always high. Personally whenever I see this approach I try to modify the part to make adding the part at the end possible. Unfortunately this is not always feasible.

Do you have any of these modifications on the site? I'd love to see how it is done. I really want to build a couple of kits and am holding off due to my ignorance.

 

Thanks.

[spruecutter96]

1 hour ago, Ham Hands said:

Do you have any of these modifications on the site? I'd love to see how it is done. I really want to build a couple of kits and am holding off due to my ignorance.

 

Thanks.

I would take an educated guess, here. It would be a case of removing the part of the undercarriage leg-mounting which is designed to hold it in place permanently.  This will then enable you to insert / remove the leg as many times as you like, during the build. If you are VERY lucky, this might create a situation where you can remove the legs after the build, to take your model to shows, etc. I would think this would be a rare situation, however, and would require a bolder kit-builder than me. 

 

Hope this is of some help. 

 

Chris. 

[Giorgio N]

Yes, the idea is to remove plastic to allow the leg to be inserted after closing the fuselage. A simple example: in some kits the front leg must be inserted into rings moulded with the fuselage halves. The easy solution is to chop away the bottom of the ring so that the pegs of the leg can slide inside once the halves are assembled.

Of course this means making the attachment point somewhat weaker, in some cases it's not a problem while in others it is. If the joint becomes too weak it's better to add a plastic "tower" under what remains of the rings... and sometimes it's better removing the ring completely and have the pegs of the leg fit onto towers cut to the right height.

In other cases it's enough to remove some plastic from the pegs so that they can slide onto a support already in the kit, disregarding any lateral attachment points.

Mind, in a few cases it's worth checking if the leg can be made to fit after the assembly of the fuselage... even if the instructions propose a different approach, sometimes the leg can be glued in place at a later stage with no problem. I've built a few Hasegaws 1/72 Starfighters and even if the instructions tell you to glue the front leg in place before gluing the fuselage halves, I know that it can be fitted with no modification after the fuselage is complete.

[jelliott523]

I dont think this is exclusively to the nose gear. Take the Academy F-4's for example, they have you add the main landing gear very early in the build, and these are fairly complex assemblies IMHO. I broke them off when building my F-4B and I wasnt able to get them to align properly so it looks off, when looking at it from straight on. I still have the F-4J in my stash and I'm looking to see if I can come up with a way to modify the main gear for that build so I dont run into the same problem.

 

[MikeR]

Another example is Zvezda's 1/72 Yak-130 - the undercart has to go in before you close everything up. Mind you, I'm a brush painter so having the undercarriage attached isn't an issue for me personally but I can see why an airbrush user wouldn't like it. It makes masking that much more difficult.

 

Mike.

[vh-bob]

Yes, I agree with the thoughts expressed by the others, it would be better to install some components at a later stage, but it go's further than this. What about more positive attachment of pylons ,tanks and weaponry ?. Surely in the 21st century designers could provide decent push in tabs or something for these items than the awful two tiny pips and two tiny holes to mount a centreline tank and its pylon etc , with a bit of thought something like this could plug in after painting. Also how many of us have broken off butt joined wheel doors on multiple occasions at a late stage of painting ?. How about a bit more thought in these areas too please.

[Ham Hands]

13 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

I would take an educated guess, here. It would be a case of removing the part of the undercarriage leg-mounting which is designed to hold it in place permanently.  This will then enable you to insert / remove the leg as many times as you like, during the build. If you are VERY lucky, this might create a situation where you can remove the legs after the build, to take your model to shows, etc. I would think this would be a rare situation, however, and would require a bolder kit-builder than me. 

 

Hope this is of some help. 

 

Chris. 

Thanks Chris.

11 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Yes, the idea is to remove plastic to allow the leg to be inserted after closing the fuselage. A simple example: in some kits the front leg must be inserted into rings moulded with the fuselage halves. The easy solution is to chop away the bottom of the ring so that the pegs of the leg can slide inside once the halves are assembled.

Of course this means making the attachment point somewhat weaker, in some cases it's not a problem while in others it is. If the joint becomes too weak it's better to add a plastic "tower" under what remains of the rings... and sometimes it's better removing the ring completely and have the pegs of the leg fit onto towers cut to the right height.

In other cases it's enough to remove some plastic from the pegs so that they can slide onto a support already in the kit, disregarding any lateral attachment points.

Mind, in a few cases it's worth checking if the leg can be made to fit after the assembly of the fuselage... even if the instructions propose a different approach, sometimes the leg can be glued in place at a later stage with no problem. I've built a few Hasegaws 1/72 Starfighters and even if the instructions tell you to glue the front leg in place before gluing the fuselage halves, I know that it can be fitted with no modification after the fuselage is complete.

Thanks very much, Giorgio.

I will practice.

10 hours ago, jelliott523 said:

I dont think this is exclusively to the nose gear. Take the Academy F-4's for example, they have you add the main landing gear very early in the build, and these are fairly complex assemblies IMHO. I broke them off when building my F-4B and I wasnt able to get them to align properly so it looks off, when looking at it from straight on. I still have the F-4J in my stash and I'm looking to see if I can come up with a way to modify the main gear for that build so I dont run into the same problem.

 

Indeed. Good luck.

3 hours ago, vh-bob said:

Yes, I agree with the thoughts expressed by the others, it would be better to install some components at a later stage, but it go's further than this. What about more positive attachment of pylons ,tanks and weaponry ?. Surely in the 21st century designers could provide decent push in tabs or something for these items than the awful two tiny pips and two tiny holes to mount a centreline tank and its pylon etc , with a bit of thought something like this could plug in after painting. Also how many of us have broken off butt joined wheel doors on multiple occasions at a late stage of painting ?. How about a bit more thought in these areas too please.

Very good points. I  agree 100%.

[Nigel Bunker]

Quote

Current idea of nose wheels added early in a build. Thoughts?

No, no, no & no. Fuselage, wings, tailplane & tail first. Then undercarriage. Then pllons & weapons. There is always a way other than the kit instructions.