Eduard 1/48 Tempest V Series 2 (#82122) – Questions about markings

[Johnson]

Hi All,

 

I've just got the new Eduard Tempest... which looks just incredible!

 

I wondered if anyone can help with some questions I have about the decals?

 

I thought that Clostermann's red nosed Tempest 'Le Grand Charles' was s/n NV724, not NV994, a Tempest Clostermann flew earlier, and was the subject of the famous photographs taken by Charles Brown over the Dortmund-Ems canal?

 

The 24” sky RAF codes seem to be a bit too green on my decal sheet. Is this just a trick of the light (the carrier paper is green) – or are they really that bright? Has anyone used them yet or got an opinion?

 

Thanks,

 

Charlie

[Troy Smith]

51 minutes ago, Johnson said:

I thought that Clostermann's red nosed Tempest 'Le Grand Charles' was s/n NV724, not NV994, a Tempest Clostermann flew earlier, and was the subject of the famous photographs taken by Charles Brown over the Dortmund-Ems canal?

 

I read somewhere  recently ( here i thought but it seems not)  that recent research by @Chris Thomas  regarding Clostermann's  Tempests had revealed that there were only two... 

ah, got it, page 26 of this pdf

https://www.eduard.com/out/media/InfoEduard/archive/2019/info-eduard-2019-02en.pdf

Quote

In 2006 we thought that Clostermann had three ‘JF-E’s (possibly four) but reassessment of all available RAF documentation including a complete analysis of No 3 Squadron’s Tempests in the last weeks of the war, photographic evidence and, crucially, a transcript of Clostermann’s own logbook, has now led to the conclusion there were only two. Please note that his logbook records aircraft code letters, whereas the Squadron ORB (Form 541) records the aircraft serial number. It is possible to link the NV994 at 83 GSU, RAF Dunsfold, April 1945. awaiting allocation to an 83 Group squadron. It would be allocated to 3 Squadron on 15 April while the squadron was at RAF Warmwell Armament Practice Camp. two by comparing the dates/times/nature of each operation. Previously it was thought that the first JF-E was NV994 until damaged in a dusk action on 20 April 1945, when he claimed two Fw190s destroyed; a copy of his Combat Report survives in the UK’s National Archive. This sortie is not recorded in the ORB Form 541 (so we do not have the serial number) although it is mentioned in the accompanying Form 540 (a narrative which does not give detail) and it is in Clostermann’s own record; his aircraft – ‘E’ in his log - was damaged and he was wounded in the leg. He is absent from the operational record for the rest of April and returns to ‘ops’ again on 3 May, flying SN222 (according to the Form 541), recorded in his log as E. However, during the same period other squadron pilots were recorded as flying NV994 and when it was eventually returned to the UK for repair in July 1945, it was recorded as still marked as ‘JF-E’. So it is very likely that SN222 was not in fact JF-E. Unfortunately, the code letter allocated to SN222 is not known but it is apparent that this aircraft was one of two replacements for Tempests lost on operations at the end of April 1945, namely JF-S and JF-G; the latter is more likely. So, why should Clostermann have recorded his flight as in ‘E’? Having studied many RAF log-books it is quite noticeable that as pilots became more senior they tended to be less scrupulous about their log-keeping. Particularly when a pilot had an allocated aircraft they often logged that machine as the one they were flying on most, if not all occasions; comparison with the squadron records shows this was not the case! Another problem with records not supporting the event is that there is no record of damage to NV994, JF-E, on 20 April 1945, and the aircraft is recorded continuing on operations, flown by other pilots. So maybe Clostermann was not actually flying JF-E on this sortie either. His Combat Report for this date records that two Tempests were ‘Category B’ as a result of the action and it is apparent from his log that his aircraft was hit by fire from one of the Fw190s. A check through the records of all the Tempests in use by 3 Squadron on this date reveals that the two Tempests were NV978, JF-C, and NV923, JF-F, (both aircraft of Clostermann’s ‘A’ Flight) so it seems likely that he was flying one of these machines. This means all available evidence now points to ‘JF-E’ having been NV994 from 15 April 1945 and all the way through to 1 July 1945, when it was damaged in an accident while landing in bad weather conditions at Vaerlöse, having been unable to land at Kastrup, 3 Squadron’s base in Denmark. A replacement JF-E was now required and as the ORB only recorded the details of operational flights we are fortunate to have two photographs showing the new JF-E was NV724. More on this aircraft in a later Newsletter.

 

the pdf has pics, but for ease of reference I pasted in the text.

 

HTH

[Johnson]

Troy,

 

Many thanks, a fascinating article by Chris Thomas. I look forward to his next installment.

 

The saga of J-FE is indeed complicated. In his Tempest plans (Scale Models Feb 1973) A. L. Bentley gives J-FE the s/n NV784, something Eduard repeated on the box art of their earlier Tempest V kit, despite the decals in the box being NV724.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

[Antti_K]

Hello Charlie,

 

I have three books written by Pierre Closterman. There is a photo of him standing on the wing of "Le Grand CHARLES" in "Le Grand Cirque". This JF-E carries either code NV784 or NV724. Only the middle number is open to interpretation. My money goes for NV724... It's difficult to say whether the spinner is red or black. There is a fresh painted "Cross of Lothringen" on the nose (possibly white).

 

The books give also three high quality close-ups around the cockpit area. Two of them show "Le Grand CHARLES" with 37 victory markings. However it is a bit difficult to find the last five in the second photo; they are covered with exhaust stains and barely visible. Comparing the location of these small "Balkencreutzes" in relation to camouflage demarcation lines it is clear that the photos show the same aircraft.

 

A photo of JF-E (starboard side, rear quarter) doesn't show the serial; it is hidden behind the stabilator. The round red/yellow crest is missing from the top of the fin. There is also no "Cross of Lothringen" visible neither (it should show if it was painted at the time). The camouflage demarcation lines look very similar to those seen on NV724. The aircraft carries under wing tanks and late war style RAF Roundels (yellow, blue, white, red) on top of the wings.

 

According to Pierre Clostermann "Le Grand CHARLES" received a red spinner and a Wing Commander's pennant "in a hurry" on 27.4.1945. This is not visible in the photos.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Johnson]

Thank you Antti,

I agree that the Tempest Flt Lt Clostermann is standing on appears to be NV724. The photos from the book are too indistinct, but there are several on the web (the Tempest Page has a good one) that indicates NV724.

Interesting that you also refer to the Wing Commander's pennant. This is drawn on Bentley's scale drawings (that I referred to above), and I added it to a 1/72 kit (Heller I think) that I completed several years ago. But have not seen it on a photograph. The only reference I have is from 'The Big Show'; 3rd May 1945 'At this time I had been placed of temporary command of the Wing'.

I have an incredibly battered copy of the book, a Corgi paperback edition from 1965, that was bought at a jumble sale. I read it about that time (I was quite young!) and it was my inspiration for many late war fighter models!

It will be interesting to see what Chris Thomas reveals when he publishes his next installment on J-FE for Eduard (thank you Troy Smith for pointing me to that useful source!)

Cheers!

[Antti_K]

3 hours ago, Johnson said:

Thank you Antti,

 'At this time I had been placed of temporary command of the Wing'.

You are welcome Charlie🙂

 

All this is very interesting as I was maybe 10 years old when I read Clostermann's book "The Big Show" for the first time. I've been a big fan of his planes since.

 

In my copy Clostermann mentions that he also got the "Third Full stripe" (Wing Commander) for his uniform. Did he ever serve as a Squadron Leader? Or was promoted directly into a rank of Wing Commander?

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Johnson]

46 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

Did he ever serve as a Squadron Leader? Or was promoted directly into a rank of Wing Commander?

Not really sure Antti.

 

According to Wikipedia he started in the RAF as a Sergeant Pilot and left on 27 July 1945 with the rank of Wing Commander, so I guess he may have been a Squadron Leader at some point. Or maybe he just made the jump?

 

There's a reference to him in The Big Show (p171 of my copy) as a 'pilot sous-lieutenant' (Pilot Officer in the RAF) which was presumably was his substantive rank in the Armée de l'Air just before returning to Ops on Tempests in the RAF.

 

Cheers!

Edited March 8, 2019 by Johnson
More info

[Chris Thomas]

Well ... shock horror ... Wikipedia is wrong!  Clostermann left the RAF on 27 August 1945, with the rank of Flight Lieutenant. It is possible that, in the absence of the wing commander, and all of the four squadron leaders, he was temporarily in charge of the wing for a short period.  However, in this case, it would not have warranted the painting of a wing commander's pennant on his aircraft.

 

The rank pennants were originally small flags attached to the struts or rudder of biplanes and as such could be seen and identify leaders in the air.  By the time they were on monoplanes it was more a case of prestige and perhaps a warning to attending ground crew to be on their best behaviour.  They were not intended to identify the aircraft in the air - often they were only painted on one side of the fuselage - the side where the pilot entered or left the cockpit.

 

The pennant and the erroneous serial came with the Frog kit with Dick Ward's decals.  I knew Dick well and he told me he took his cue from The Big Show.  The kit came first (1967) and Arthur Bentley followed Dick's lead.  These were the days before scrupulous accuracy and full provenance were expected.

 

The original Big Show was in French of course and it would not surprise me to find some of the translation was responsible for these misunderstandings. Also, although Clostermann never wore more than two rings on his sleeve in the RAF , he did return to action (1956-60) in the French Reserve during the Algerian war and got his third ring as a Lt Colonel - equivalent to wing commander.  This may be the third ring to which he was referring.

 

If anyone is interested in Clostermann's full career, in unprecedented, highly illustrated historical detail, including a full explanation of his controversial scoreboard, then Avions 227 is a must.  A knowledge of French would be useful!

CT

 

 

[rossm]

11 minutes ago, Chris Thomas said:

The original Big Show was in French of course and it would not surprise me to find some of the translation was responsible for these misunderstandings.

 

I believe The Big Show was not intended as an historically accurate record, more as an indication of the kind of events that took place. I've a memory I can't pin down that Clostermann himself said this.

 

As a possible consequence different editions of the book have differing versions of events - the French edition I have has Clostermann and Remlinger as the two pilots involved in the recce Bf109G downing where my recollection is the Engish edition has Clostermann and a British pilot (I'm away from the books just now). Different names are unlikey to be down to translation. Myu recollection of the event as described in 'Spitfire Special' is that it was actually two British pilots.

 

Also bear in mind the book was written post-war when France needed heroes who fought on the winning side - to have Pierre le Gloan as the leading French ace would have been politically incorrect so I suspect Clostermann's claims were probably interpreted leniently. Again I 'm away from my books so don't know if I have Avions 227 to check that theory, I have some copies dealing with Clostermann but haven't read them for ages so don't remember details.

 

I think there was a thread on a forum somewhere that Clostermann himself posted on, again my memory fails to provide the details.

 

I'll check all this when I get back to my books next week, a search of my hard drive failed to find my notes.

[rossm]

21 minutes ago, rossm said:

 

I think there was a thread on a forum somewhere that Clostermann himself posted on, again my memory fails to provide the details.

 

This thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234924465-clostermann-questions/&tab=comments#comment-1100876 corrects my memory - it was a letter to SAM. It also confirms my memory regarding the Bf109 incident.

[Johnson]

Quite a saga, thank you Chris Thomas and rossm for the additional info. I cannot add anything, especially considering the link to the 2012 threads!

 

When I complete the excellent new Eduard Tempest, it will probably be JF-E as Charles Brown photographed it above the Dortmund-Ems canal, if the s/n can be confirmed. Charles Brown was a great photographer, I'm sure many of you will be familiar with his 'Camera Above the Clouds' books, some of the greatest aerial photography ever?

 

I may also need another Eduard kit to model Jim Sheddan's Tempest having got a set of the very nice Aeromaster decals* that depict his SA-M of 486 Sqn... and also has decals for "The Terror of the Rheine's" Tempest... where will I put them? Will I live long enough to finish them??

 

Charlie

 

*with what looks like the correct colour sky codes (see my initial post) - any thoughts on the Eduard sky colours?

Edited March 9, 2019 by Johnson
spelling!

[Richard502]

What was the size of codes on Tempests? 24 inch?

Richard

 

[Johnson]

Yes, 24"

[Chris Thomas]

Code size depended on the squadron.  24" was the norm but 80 and 501 used 18" and 22' respectively.  The 84 Group squadrons, 33 and 222 used larger letters, up to 36".

CT

[Richard502]

19 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

Code size depended on the squadron.  24" was the norm but 80 and 501 used 18" and 22' respectively.  The 84 Group squadrons, 33 and 222 used larger letters, up to 36".

CT

Thank you Sir, most helpful!

Richard