B25 Mitchell rear and side guns - when did they come in?

[Dave Fleming]

Looking at some pics of RAF Mitchell IIs, later aircraft are fitted with the tail gunner position and then the bulged side windows (As well as the front gun packs) e.g.

 

 

Does anyone know when they came in - obviously the new Airfix kit has neither, so some pondering some cross kitting with older Italeri kits in the stash.

 

Earliest serial with both I can find is FW184 on this video, which shows Mitchells with neither, the tail gun or the tail gun plus side windows. FV923 (the subject of the Airfix kit) had neither
 

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dave Fleming

[Troy Smith]

the US subtype with the waist guns if the B-25D-30, if that helps tie in with RAF serials @Graham Boak  and @Seahawk  are chaps with books that might say.

 

Note, the later models, H, J , with the waist guns have a different, deep rear fuselage, and the side gun positions above are not quite the same as the D-30 types, which have a higher 'eyebrow' over the window.

 

HTH

T

[Dave Fleming]

Thanks, a little research in my own books shows FV923 was one of the last RAF B-25Cs, and FV940 onward were B-25Ds (Starting 41-30414). The first B-25D-30 was 41-87453, which was an RAF aircraft (FW144 )

 

So just need to know when the tail gunner was introduced

Edited March 5, 2019 by Dave Fleming

[e8n2]

7 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

Thanks, a little research in my own books shows FV923 was one of the last RAF B-25Cs, and FV940 onward were B-25Ds (Starting 41-30414). The first B-25D-30 was 41-87453, which was an RAF aircraft (FW144 )

 

So just need to know when the tail gunner was introduced

There was an optional tail gun position from the very beginning.  The tail cone on the B-25 and B-25A was very different than on the B/C/D?G series.  IIRC on the Doolittle raid they had broom sticks sticking out of the tail glass to bluff the Japanese into thinking they had tail guns installed.  The H model introduced the revised tail gun turret.

Later,

Dave

 

Wikipedia says the B through G models did not have a tail gun.  Why the tail glass then I don't know, but it seems to me that I have read otherwise.

Edited March 6, 2019 by e8n2
Added additional info.

[Ed Russell]

These B-25D2 modifications were not confined to the B-25D-30 series but  were to be found on B-25D-20 and -25 models also. B-25D2  was a major armament improvement programme initially ordered by USAAF amidst B-25D production and it was applied both to USAAF planes and the lend-lease deliveries.  They were operated under various names and by various operators - USMC PBJ-1D. VVS B-25DP, RAAF B-25 and USAAF B-25D. 

Conversion from the Italeri kits is possible but will probably result in a lot of work or an almost-correct model due to the Italeri kits' deficiencies and the fact that the conversion is about more than just adding B-25J waist and tail guns. The shapes are different. There is most likely a conversion set coming out for those who want it to be more accurate!

[Graham Boak]

Some of the B-25C or D had the tail cone removed and a rather uncomfortable prone tailgunner with a hand-operated gun.  Look for photos of the Air Apaches in the Pacific.  Why the tail cone was transparent in the first place I don't know, but it wasn't for a gunner.

 

i believe that the later tail gunner's position is taller on the D because of the shallower fuselage.

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

 Why the tail cone was transparent in the first place

What we would now call "Post-strike assessment" and they called "Observation". I think, from photos, the J and D2 tail positions are quite different. There is even some variation amongst D2 positions. There are also field modified positions, some, as per Air Apaches reference above with a cut away tail cone and some with a different tail position. It's not easy to sort out the whole picture!

[Seahawk]

3 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

These B-25D2 modifications were not confined to the B-25D-30 series but  were to be found on B-25D-20 and -25 models also. 

Can't find anything in Pearcy: Lend Lease Aircraft in World War II, Meekcoms: The British Air Commission and Lend lease or Andrade: US Military Aircraft Designations Since 1909 that correlates Fxxxx-serialled Mitchells to production batch or to AAC serials.  That might not have been too useful in telling us which ones had the mods but might at least have enabled us to rule out those that didn't.

 

Slight topic drift: it's my impression, extrapolating from the Detail and Scale, that all British Mitchells except the Mk.IIIs would have had the 2 outlet covers over the starboard wing.  Airfix think so in their RAF Mitchell boxing.  Anyone have evidence to the contrary?

[Gmat]

Perhaps the best book for the information on the early tail and side gun positions is the Avery book, B-25 Mitchell: The Magnificent Medium. The mods were done at the depot in Kansas City, I believe. The Accurate Miniature B-25G gives the option for the tail gun fairing, but not the side gun windows. The later B-25H and later tail gun fairing was more curved where it attaches to the fuselage, the earlier one wasn't. The earlier side gun positions weren't staggered like in the B-25H and later planes. 

The 41st BG B-25Gs had the tail gun mount further modified in Hawaii. 

Must dig out the book.

 

Grant

[Dave Fleming]

8 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Can't find anything in Pearcy: Lend Lease Aircraft in World War II, Meekcoms: The British Air Commission and Lend lease or Andrade: US Military Aircraft Designations Since 1909 that correlates Fxxxx-serialled Mitchells to production batch or to AAC serials.  That might not have been too useful in telling us which ones had the mods but might at least have enabled us to rule out those that didn't.

 

 

Butler's Air Arsenal: North America and Joe Baugher's US serials website both give the relevant US to RAF serial equivalents (The Butler book as blocks, the Bauger lists on an individual basis)

 

e.g. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1942_4.html

Edited March 6, 2019 by Dave Fleming

[72modeler]

I thought I had posted a reply with a link to a previous discussion on this very topic, but must have messed up somehow. Here's a link to part of  the discussion. @tonyot and @Michael51 were participants and might be able to help as well, as both have built B-25's in the same configuration, IIRC. Good luck on your project- can't have too many Mitchell models!

Mike

 

 

 

[Dave Fleming]

3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

I thought I had posted a reply with a link to a previous discussion on this very topic, but must have messed up somehow.

 

I posted in another thread last night and it seems to have disappeared, so it might not be you!

[Robertone139]

To revive this thread.

The best bet is really Italeri's PBJ-1D, it carries the correct "improptu" tail gun position and "only" requires to add the waist gunners positions.

[72modeler]

On 3/6/2019 at 3:30 AM, Graham Boak said:

i believe that the later tail gunner's position is taller on the D because of the shallower fuselage.

You are correct, Graham. The first manned tail gun was a handheld single .50cal gun in the tailcone; then a true gunner's position with a single .50cal gun was a modification added to B-25C/D/G's, and it was taller than the final factory-built tail gunner's position with twin .50cal guns introduced on the B-25H/J's, which had a 7-inch deeper rear fuselage, IIRC, to fit the new tail turret and gunner.

the 

 

@Dave Fleming, there was a lot of discussion a while back on USAAF/RAAF/RAF early Mitchells with the waist gun position and tail gun position, with text and photos; you might do a search for all of the discussions. I also have the William Wolf book on the B-25, and I can look to see if there is any information on production blocks/serials, if you come up empty. I have attached a link to the B-25 historical website that I think you might find useful. Good luck!

Mike

 

 https://b-25history.org/

[Sydhuey]

The B-25 H/J came with offset waist guns and twin gun tail turret position from the factory so they are out of the conversation.

The waist gun positions (opposite each other) and single gun tail position  on B-25D were fitted new at the Kansas plant before overseas shipment from the B-25D-20/25 (called the D2) onward, kits were also sent to the Pacific and many earlier aircraft had them fitted at maintenance units in the Pacific , Early B-25G's didn't have them initially but later dash numbers also had waist and tail positions fitted from new (Waist and Tail positions helped with C of G with the Cannon armed version). When the waist and tail kits were fitted the belly turret was removed.

The above pic of the RAF B-25D is unique, as the RAF only used the B-25 as a medium level bomber, all the strafing guns were removed (1 or 2 fixed .50 in nose and side gun packs- 6 x .50 MG's and ammo about 1000Ib removed from aircraft) and most of the time the tail position was unmanned, stories by gunners at the B-25 Sqn's hated the tail position so left it unmanned and 2 x gunners served the waist guns instead of one, one gunner credited his refusal to man the tail position saved his life as his aircraft took an AA hit to the tail turret while he was on a waist gun.   

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sydhuey
Info from Garry Shepherdson

[Graham Boak]

The RAF at this time retained the Sperry belly turret, thus covering (in theory at least) part of the volume left vulnerable without tail gunners.

[Sydhuey]

The Mitchells that had waist and tail gun position fitted did not run the belly turret, it stopped being fitted around -20 -25, and  the RAF was about the only operator who kept it , almost all US units with B-25C/D quickly removed it.

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but formations would be mixed.