WW2 military aircraft decals

[Christopher Hall]

Hi guys and girls,

 

I am looking into creating own decals and I'm looking for anyone who might be interested or might have information on WW2 British, American,  German, Italian, French, Russian and Australian aircraft markings to start and others to follow. 

 

I am looking for dimensions and measurements of the 1:1 markings so I can create the most accurate product possible.

 

Thanks guys.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Christopher Hall

[Troy Smith]

erm... as a camouflage and markings anorak,  I'd say you are really biting off more than you can chew.

You could spend years just dealing with German markings.

recreating RAF Battle of Britain codes would drive you nuts...  as they vary so much in individual detail. 

There are scans of an old, but still excellent (mostly) series of camouflage and markings booklets here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings

 

many have the original dimensions of the markings,  read a few of these to get an idea of how complex a subject it is, the are RAF fighters in NW Europe and USAAF fighter and bombers...

 

There are also multiple decals sheets already, some better than others accuracy wise,  but  what you have asked about is such a vast area of study you really need to be more specific.

have a look at the Fundekals offerings, http://www.fundekals.com

you can download the instructions, and these give an idea of the attention to detail, and underlying knowledge of the subject needed. 

The other factor is this, many of the really interesting options are already available,  so to offer something new is hard, and requires a really deep dive into the research rabbit hole... 

 

You might want too look at Hannants to get an idea of just how many currently available sheets there already are

https://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?adv=1&product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=&product_type_id=all_decals&code=&scale_id=&keyword_search=&setPerPage=100&sort=0&search_direction=0&save_search_name=&save_search=

they list of 12,000 sheets, yes that's everything

they list nearly 4000 1/48th sheets

https://www.hannants.co.uk/search/index.php?adv=1&product_category_id=&product_division_id=&manufacturer_id=&product_type_id=all_decals&code=&scale_id=955&keyword_search=&setPerPage=100&sort=0&search_direction=0&save_search_name=&save_search=

 

Sorry to sound so negative,  but have a read of the links and you might see why.    

 

HTH and welcome to the forum

[Christopher Hall]

Thanks for the links and the advice, my dad owns his own modelling company and I have access to his casters/printers if I can get the design work down..... (I've seen their work and it's amazing, you can actually read the 1:700 scale writing)

 

WW2 is my preferred era and I know that I'm probably over shooting by looking to start with such a wide range, I'm looking to set my goals high and push to achieve them.

 

It's going to be a long term goal as I know that there are many many many different marking for the same aircraft depending on pre/post war and purposes served during the war.

 

I will take any information and advice on board and see where it takes me thanks again for your help =).

Edited February 26, 2019 by Christopher Hall

[JackG]

 Along with accurate measurements, you will also have to look at accurate printing colours.  If this does get off the ground, would you print colour 1:1 or would you take into account scale effect?

 

regards,

Jack

[NPL]

Again, this is not an easy task: In 1:48, there must be around 1600-1700 decals for Spitfires alone, on something like 250 different sheets. For the Bf109 same scale most likely many more. Then you have the rest. 

 

Before starting, a good advice is really to study the market. Where do we need more decals (and there are certainly several subjects not that well served)? 

 

We had an example here of someone with a project like yours. He published illustrations for at least six sheets of decals for the Spitfire (I believe mostly in desert scheme). It never surfaced. 

 

Then you have the concept: Gaston is no more among us (AeroMaster). His enormous series of decals were wonderful, often thematic, but only four to five aircraft in one sheet. Another line will be something like Victory, whose Spitfire-decals included in one package something like, I believe, 37 aircrafts. Research is another issue. Nobody has exceeded the old Modeldecals (mostly postwar, 1:72). Closest was the Canadian Watermark. 

 

It would probably be profitable to see how fundecals are doing the job. They have plenty of information for the single plane, but only published on the internet, whereas the decals come without instructions. Try their website.

 

And finally, Good Luck!

[Giorgio N]

Having drawn several decals for my own use, I can say that doing everything in-house is a tough job. Can be done but the research side requires a lot of work... reason why your quest for people with the right knowledge is IMHO a good starting point ! Since you want to address different air forces, it will be impossible to find a single person who knows everything about every WW2 aircraft camo and markings. At the same time it's easy to find people who know a lot on say WW2 RAF in the desert or USAAF in the Pacific and so on. These are the people who will know the regulations and be able to spot exceptions to the same regulations. We should also keep in mind that not all air forces regulated things in the same way... the RAF for example was pretty strict in most aspects of the markings, the Italian Regia Aeronautica on the other hand was less strict on things like the size of the unit codes, meaning that the only way to tell the size of a certain number may be by comparing pictures of the subject with known dimensions of the aircraft.

 

At that point what matters is to find a good "standard" agreement with whoever gives you the information, so that this person will know what his involvment will be and what if any reward will be given.. this can range from a thanks note on the decal sheet instructions to a free decal sheet to a proper payment, depending on how much work this person has to offer.

Of course it's useful to have access to publications like the ones mentioned by Troy, and to many others as new bits of information are always coming to the surface so improving our collective knowledge of the subject. Access to colour standards is also very important as allows to trace the proper colours used in the markings of the subjects you will offer. This is IMHO something that it's better if you own directly, as you will be the one dealing with the printer, so leaving the researcher to just give the name and reference code of the colour to use.

I'd also like to add a warning, warning that comes from my own personal experience... When it comes to accuracy of the markings, it is very important to keep in mind that your accurate markings may have to go on an inaccurate kit ! And there are many more inaccurate kits around than people think...

Generally decal manufacturers design their sheets with a certain kit in mind and the artwork is tested to "fit" on the kit. If the kit is an accurate one everything works fine but if the kit is inaccurate it could happen that a set of properly dimensioned decals will look wrong on said kit. Some artwork also have to follow the contours of parts of the aircraft and on a scale model this means that whatever the contour, accurate or not, the decal will have to follow the kit. I could go on with other aspects that must be compromised when designing decals for a model, but it's already clear that the ideal of perfect accuracy is not easy to achieve. It's also clear that designing decals without access to the kit for which these are meant is not the best situation and can lead to a product that may not satisfy the customer.

[NPL]

and we can add to this. Often the reference material is of low -- sometimes very low -- quality, or it is non-existent One example is John Kent's Spitfire JA+K. There are several decals for it, but I haven't been able to locate just one picture.  Other cases includes exemples of wrong interpretations, such as my favorite example, 'Ceram', where the Indian ended up as a clown (and his airplane from being a Spitfire Mk.II to a Mk.V).

[Christopher Hall]

Thanks for the responses guys, I understand that kits themselves vary in accuracy and I have seen 2 kits the same scale the same mark build by 2 different companies and they are two completely different kits when side by side. 

 

I do have quite a library to use as reference as the work my dad does is WW2, cold war and modern day and he has a lot of things to take reference from. As his work permit's anyway, he's currently working on 5 ships at the minute. I'd like to find help elsewhere and figure things out myself instead of relying on my dad and his reputation to get me going.

 

There is a lot I have to learn about the designing and production of what I'm wanting to achieve and any help and advice I can get from the people that know what they want in a product is much appreciated. Growing up around the modelling hobby has given me some knowledge of what people expect and I myself can usually spot mistakes in the castings and fittings before I take them out of the bag. 

 

I will look at the links you have posted and look at current decal sheets. After reading what you have all said I've decided to break things down and I'll start with the good old British aircraft and look into how many different designs there will be.

 

If there is a particular decal set that you'd like to see for your own uses I'd be glad to make that a starting point in my ventures. =) 

 

 

[Christopher Hall]

Also JackG I do have access to colour referencing books so I will be trying my best to keep the colours as accurate as possible while taking into consideration how scaling would change the look of the markings. The printers I have access to are of extremely high quality, there is no bleeding in smaller scales and markings are pinpoint even in 1:700 scale

Edited February 26, 2019 by Christopher Hall

[Seahawk]

To which we can add the customers.  You are aiming a market that is by its nature specialised and discerning to the point of pickiness and beyond.  (Those dabbling in the subject won't care or will be happy with the kit-supplied markings.)  You will find plenty of evidence on this site of people who have a lot of knowledge, usually highly specialised, acquired over a lifetime of study and/or personal experience.  They will view your offerings (like anybody else's because you're in a crowded and very competitive market) with a very critical eye: get the size, style, stroke width, proportions or colour of, say, a squadron code even slightly wrong and your product will be dismissed, either privately or publicly on forums like this one.  Someone has mentioned Aeromaster.  They produced a lot of subjects that people really wanted and usually got things about 90-95% correct.  The problem is that the errors got spotted and publicised so that the whole brand is now frequently nicknamed, slightly unfairly, Errormaster.  You may well commission research or artwork but, without any previous in-depth knowledge of the subject, you won't be able to assess the quality or accuracy of what you get for your money.  That's before you get to printing where constant vigilance is required to ensure that you actually get what you ordered or thought you ordered: things like colour density are critical but only an experienced modeller will assess.  It isn't good enough for it to look good on the sheet and there are plenty on this site who have the scars of trying to get the artwork designer and/or sheet printer to just do what you have repeatedly told then in very precise detail to do.

 

Without a deep knowledge of the subject I fear you don't have the foundation for anything other than an exceedingly brave business venture.  Dick Ward of Modeldecal, still the benchmark for quality for many of us, produced transfers on the back of a lifetime's interest in and study of aircraft markings.  Again the late David Hannant started the Xtradecal range on the back of a lifetime's interest in aircraft (as well as a probably unparalleled knowledge of the model aircraft business) but you will find frequent complaints on this site about the accuracy of some of the product range: do not underestimate how knowledgeable or how pernickety modellers can be.   More recently some members of this site have started out producing transfer sheets, but they limit their subject matter to a very narrow area in which they have had a longstanding personal interest and, as modellers, they know what modellers want and also will not accept.  They will also have watched others crash and burn and learned from their experiences.

 

In short, "if I was going there, I wouldn't start from here."

Edited February 26, 2019 by Seahawk

[NPL]

Well, Seahawk, you have to start somewhere. And it seems that our adventurous friend has access to quite an extensive library, and also sound advice. 

 

This does not mean that I will disagree with your point about the preference of a long time acquaintance with your subject. Just to understand my favorite subject, the Spitfire, will demands serious studies for a very long time, or if you move to the jungle of German camouflage during the WW II, you are crucified if you don't know the most recent news about the subject.

[Seahawk]

And, as a transfer manufacturer, you necessarily have to make decisions when the evidence is absent or contradictory eg plump for colour A and not colour B or C.  We armchair modellers can sit on the fence and/or change our minds several times a day until the time comes to actually finish our model.  There will be times when you will have plumped for the wrong option, especially if you don't know the most recent news on the subject (which may or may not be in turn discredited the week after).

 

I'm not trying to be discouraging: I'd just like OP to go into things with eyes wide open.  There are plenty of inaccurate transfer sheets out there and adding to them is not a way to make your first million!

Edited February 26, 2019 by Seahawk

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

As someone who has dipped his toes into the decal business with my Marmaduke Press range ( never miss a chance for a plug!!), I will wish you luck in your venture- BUT - and I add this as a big BUT if you are expecting  to become wealthy - then do something else!

Modellers, and I'm one of 43 odd years experience - so I speak from the buying side as well are a right picky bunch - and just because someone swears there's a market for 1/48th scale Farley Fruitbat markings in service with the Royal Albanian Airforce doesn't mean there is, not that even the person doing the swearing will buy them.

I'm currently researchin my next release - and it can be mind numbingly tedious as well as interesting - trying to pin down stuff, so that its "right". It also means one has to make best guesses sometimes, and that will leave you open to an army of pompous know-it-alls ( that's us again ! LOL) who will spit, and swear, and complain that your products are worthless because your failed to realise that Fruitbat AB1234 had a mid-green  2 inch wide strip on the left lower wheel spat, but only on Tuesday mornings, and if there was an R in the month.

I wish you luck though - as its exciting , and pretty damn cool when people buy your stuff, and like it too.  There's plenty of info out there on code and marking styles and sizes etc etc. and im sure there are plenty of schemes people would like.  The advice on knowing your subject is very valid too - as you need passion to keep it going.

Good luck, and may all your registers be in.

Jonners, head chef, chief envelope licker, and penniless backer of Marmaduke Press

 

[Giorgio N]

Yes, we are an annoying bunch of nitpickers who are never happy... or you can say we are a group of highly discerning enthusiasts, however the way the market work does not necessarily depend on this.

Aeromaster is still known by many as errormaster but I remember well how many of their sheets sold out quickly after being released... so maybe there is (or there was) room for decal sheets that are not that well researched ?

Some decal companies proudly claim very thorough research and deliver products that are clearly the result of this kind of work. Other companies really seem less concerned with the accuracy of their sheets. Still the market seems to have room for both.

I am not with this condoning shoddy research and inaccurate decal sheets, but it's important to keep in mind that success in the market depends on many aspects, of which accuracy is one.

[NPL]

Giorgio, if modelers do not investigate themselves, they are easy prays to whoever has something to offer. But as I have written here a number of times, always base your model on actual evidence, which will normally be in the shape of photos. Without that evidence, who can tell the difference between various branches with decals for the same thing? Who is right, and who is not? 

 

Take again the Ceram case. The standard of the photo of the airplane a generation ago was low, and therefore it was reckoned that it was an Indian. It chanced when qualitty improved, and you could see that it was not an Indian but a clown on a unicycle with a bow. Still one company had him facing forwards, another with him facing you. 

 

But because modelers have eyes, let them use their eyes.  

[Giorgio N]

21 minutes ago, NPL said:

Giorgio, if modelers do not investigate themselves, they are easy prays to whoever has something to offer. But as I have written here a number of times, always base your model on actual evidence, which will normally be in the shape of photos. Without that evidence, who can tell the difference between various branches with decals for the same thing? Who is right, and who is not? 

 

Take again the Ceram case. The standard of the photo of the airplane a generation ago was low, and therefore it was reckoned that it was an Indian. It chanced when qualitty improved, and you could see that it was not an Indian but a clown on a unicycle with a bow. Still one company had him facing forwards, another with him facing you. 

 

But because modelers have eyes, let them use their eyes.  

 

I fully agree on basing a model on evidence, but this is the way you approach the hobby, it is most often the way I approach the hobby, it's the way many here approach the hobby but it's not necessarily how every modeller approach the hobby. Other modellers want a nice brightly coloured model and may buy a decal sheet for one such subject without wondering if this is accurate or not. Accuracy, be it in terms of shapes or of markings, is of interest to some and not to others. Again, I'm not advocating deliberately inaccurate decals, but if I have to look at the matter from a manufacturer perspective there are a lot other matters that can lead to success

[NPL]

41 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

I fully agree on basing a model on evidence, but this is the way you approach the hobby, it is most often the way I approach the hobby, it's the way many here approach the hobby but it's not necessarily how every modeller approach the hobby. Other modellers want a nice brightly coloured model and may buy a decal sheet for one such subject without wondering if this is accurate or not. Accuracy, be it in terms of shapes or of markings, is of interest to some and not to others. Again, I'm not advocating deliberately inaccurate decals, but if I have to look at the matter from a manufacturer perspective there are a lot other matters that can lead to success

Which was what I meant when I said that such modellers would be pray to anything. But of course, this is a hobby and not a science. I, however, believe that after the first fifty models, modellers may begin to become a little more selective. Again it would be nice to know how many there are out there. The hobby is not inexpensive today, and when you pay as much as you do for. e.g-. the new Tamiya Spitfire, why not make it into a supermodel as it deserves? But maybe I am just an old romantic.

[Tweener]

What I would do is create sheets of various sized USAAC roundels, alongside squadron badges and tail codes. This would allow for a massive number of interwar USAAC aircraft to be modeled from just two or 3 sheets.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Tweener said:

What I would do is create sheets of various sized USAAC roundels, alongside squadron badges and tail codes. This would allow for a massive number of interwar USAAC aircraft to be modeled from just two or 3 sheets.

To add to Tweeners thoughts id recommend post war USAF badges as well. They're not very comnon for a large majority of units, and different USAF Commands. Examples being ADC, PACAF, & USAFE groups/wings. Edwards test, Eglins armament test, USN PAX River, & Test Pilots school all come to mind as well. 

 

Dennis

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

To add to Tweeners thoughts id recommend post war USAF badges as well. They're not very comnon for a large majority of units, and different USAF Commands. Examples being ADC, PACAF, & USAFE groups/wings. Edwards test, Eglins armament test, USN PAX River, & Test Pilots school all come to mind as well. 

 

Dennis

 

You mean like those sheets made by Super/Microscale in the '70s and '80s that today can still be found in model shops at bargain prices because the shop has been trying to get rid of them for 2-3 decades with no success ?

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

You mean like those sheets made by Super/Microscale in the '70s and '80s that today can still be found in model shops at bargain prices because the shop has been trying to get rid of them for 2-3 decades with no success ?

Sorry Giorgio ? I really have to disagree with you on this one. Until my hiatus from modeling in 2005 that may have been the case. Since ive come back there Is no such thing as a true Shop here in Chicago. Not one that carries decals other than Railroad specialty ones. There isn't anyplace online in the U.S. I've found. That still carries the full range of micro/super scale other than the railroading stuff. That could possibly be because the owner(s) may have passed on or sold the company ? Since i’ve come here to Britmodeller. I have seen a # people, that are or were looking for mid 50’s to mid 60’s USAF Badges for special units or test aircraft. Sadly only to find out the only option is to make them themselves ?

     If Micro/Superscale are that readily available why are they not using them ? I guess it may be that way in Europe, where the hobby shops still carry these decal ranges. That they're still tucked in some dusty corner as you say on sale. Shops thst are looking to get rid of them. And they can be picked up cheap. But here in the States, speaking from my own experience that just isn't true. 

 

Dennis

[NPL]

21 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Sorry Giorgio ? I really have to disagree with you on this one. Until my hiatus from modeling in 2005 that may have been the case. Since ive come back there Is no such thing as a true Shop here in Chicago. Not one that carries decals other than Railroad specialty ones. There isn't anyplace online in the U.S. I've found. That still carries the full range of micro/super scale other than the railroading stuff. That could possibly be because the owner(s) may have passed on or sold the company ? Since i’ve come here to Britmodeller. I have seen a # people, that are or were looking for mid 50’s to mid 60’s USAF Badges for special units or test aircraft. Sadly only to find out the only option is to make them themselves ?

     If Micro/Superscale are that readily available why are they not using them ? I guess it may be that way in Europe, where the hobby shops still carry these decal ranges. That they're still tucked in some dusty corner as you say on sale. Shops thst are looking to get rid of them. And they can be picked up cheap. But here in the States, speaking from my own experience that just isn't true. 

 

Dennis

I don't think that Giorgio talked about the whole range, but about those selection that pop up here and there. Besides, today Ebay would probably be the place to search.

[Phantome]

On 2/26/2019 at 4:27 AM, Christopher Hall said:

Thanks for the links and the advice, my dad owns his own modelling company and I have access to his casters/printers if I can get the design work down..... (I've seen their work and it's amazing, you can actually read the 1:700 scale writing)

 

WW2 is my preferred era and I know that I'm probably over shooting by looking to start with such a wide range, I'm looking to set my goals high and push to achieve them.

 

It's going to be a long term goal as I know that there are many many many different marking for the same aircraft depending on pre/post war and purposes served during the war.

 

I will take any information and advice on board and see where it takes me thanks again for your help =).

 

I hate to pour cold water over this but there's a few points that I think you should really consider first before jumping into decal making (which I have considered myself).

 

1) The decal industry is the product of people being very dedicated to modelling and wanting to add value and fill niches. It is not exactly a hugely profitable one: margins and low and if you are profitable, it's probably just to finance the next sheet rather than expecting a Ferrari anytime soon. Many decal companies fold quite quickly, probably because most of the owners aren't rich and therefore aren't prepared to take even minor losses; the more established ones like Microscale benefit from the fact that they sell other modelling supplies besides decals and which makes them profitable. Many decal "companies" are simply one-man outfits which at most get research assistance from others on an ad hoc basis. They do it for the love of modelling, not out of financial reasons. Aside from the fact that your dad has a modelling company, how into modelling are you actually? I ask because you clearly just joined this site and these are your first posts, and this seems to be a question that would be asked after years of modelling and knowing the industry.

 

2) Decal companies acquire reputations for accuracy. Look around this forum and you'll often find threads of "are X company's decals are accurate?" and you'd be surprised at how many of them don't (there's a recent thread on Kit's World which was not very flattering, and Aeromaster - which was once one of the bigger ones around before they too went the way of the dinosaurs- was also known as "Errormaster"). On the other hand, many of the ones with the best reputation are those that are focus on particular subjects (ej: Begemot with modern Russian aircraft, CAM on US Navy aircraft). When you say something like "I'm looking to set my goals high and push to achieve them", this actually seems like the exact opposite strategy of how to approach decal making: start small, focus on a particular subject, get a good reputation, and gradually expand your reach. Remember: the grand majority of modellers don't buy third party decals. This is a niche industry for a small subset of the modelling market, one that is going to be highly critical of poor quality and shoddy research.

 

3) Modellers don't just want more [insert country] decals. They want subjects that haven't been approached. Again, this is something that comes after years of modelling as well as historical interest in the subject matter and realizing "why are there no Bosnia/Kosovo F-15 markings in the market"? "Why are there no hi-viz F-16 stencils?" "why can't I find the 'Jumpin' Jacques' P-51 in 1/72 scale?". We really don't need another 'Big Beautiful Doll', or Spangdahlem Viper, trust me.

 

Anyway, again sorry for being a Negative Nancy. Decal making is a cottage industry that runs on love and dedication of the subject matter, not entrepreneurial acumen and infinite ambition.

 

 

 

[PhoenixII]

Afternoon Christopher, listen to your Dad! 

Sorry, slow this week, just sussed the who 👍

To answer one of the questions you pose @Phantome having seen some of Christopher's @Christopher Hall work in the last ten days, his ability is NOT in question.

Christopher, I know you have the drive, the background and access to a very good UK print company. Only advice I can give is, walk before you try to run. If there is anything you need help with, all you have to do is ask, I would think, between us, you should be covered for most eventualities, be it Land, Sea or Air!

Hope to see you Saturday, with your Dad.... work permitting.

Paul

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Sorry Giorgio ? I really have to disagree with you on this one. Until my hiatus from modeling in 2005 that may have been the case. Since ive come back there Is no such thing as a true Shop here in Chicago. Not one that carries decals other than Railroad specialty ones. There isn't anyplace online in the U.S. I've found. That still carries the full range of micro/super scale other than the railroading stuff. That could possibly be because the owner(s) may have passed on or sold the company ? Since i’ve come here to Britmodeller. I have seen a # people, that are or were looking for mid 50’s to mid 60’s USAF Badges for special units or test aircraft. Sadly only to find out the only option is to make them themselves ?

     If Micro/Superscale are that readily available why are they not using them ? I guess it may be that way in Europe, where the hobby shops still carry these decal ranges. That they're still tucked in some dusty corner as you say on sale. Shops thst are looking to get rid of them. And they can be picked up cheap. But here in the States, speaking from my own experience that just isn't true. 

 

Dennis

 

Dennis, I did not made myself clear, my fault. What I meant is that Microscale offered this kind of product in the past (meaning sheets with unit badges) but these were not the most popular and it's possible to find these around for low prices more easily than it is possible to find other sheets from the same company. The same Superscale, when they continued the line gave up on this concept. I don't know the status of Superscale today but the unit badges, never being good sellers, have been OOP for many years.

Tauromodel initially followed a similar approach with their whole line: rather than offering complete subjects, they had sheets with roundels for several types, sheets with numbers, sheets with unit badges and so on... interesting for someone who wants to build all postwar Italian types but not really the best option for modellers who just want to build say an F-104S. Tauromodel later sheets were more conventional, with complete sets for a number of markings on each sheet.

While there may be a limited interest in a similar sheet today, this would be lower than the interest raised by decal sheets that offer all the necessary markings for a couple of subjects.