Question concerning a Blemheim Mk.IF

[Guldager]

Hi there,

 

I'm looking for some information about color scheme and letter codes for the Blenheim Mk.IF described on Wikipedia as:

 

"In the German night-bombing raid on London on 18 June 1940, Blenheims accounted for five German bombers, thus proving that they were better-suited for night fighting. In July, No. 600 Squadron, by then based at RAF Manston, had some of its Mk IFs equipped with AI Mk III radar. With this radar equipment, a Blenheim from the Fighter Interception Unit (FIU) at RAF Ford achieved the first success on the night of 2–3 July 1940, accounting for a Dornier Do 17 bomber."

 

I'm at the moment building the new Airfix Blenheim Mk.IF in 1:48 scale, and would like to build it as the one described above.

 

If someone has pictures or graphics showing the actual a/c it would be nice too.

 

[Troy Smith]

43 minutes ago, Guldager said:

I'm looking for some information about color scheme and letter codes for the Blenheim Mk.IF described on Wikipedia as:

 

https://forum.keypublishing.com/forum/historic-aviation/24463-blenheim-pilots-interception-log-aug-part-1940?t=23890

has scans from a logbook, but August, not July, but that implies july is in the logbook? 

found via

the Beaufighters do not have codes,  and i'm not finding information in the Fighter Interception Unit had a code? 

after much searching here 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_RAF_squadron_codes

ZQ code Fighter Interception Unit

 

colour would most likely be Temperate Land Scheme,  as overall black was late 1940

have a read here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/07-Bristol-Blenheim

 

May all be known, but may give some pointers?

[gingerbob]

Are you sure it isn't the night of 22/23 July?  The only claim for the FIU I can find is from that night.  The combat reports (3, one for each crewmember) do refer to the "Special device" or something of the sort, as well as other comments that indicate radar.  The observer mentions getting thrown from the turret "into the bowels of the aircraft".  So, definitely a turret fitted.

F/O Ashfield pilot

Sgt Leyland "spook"

P/O Morris observer

[Graham Boak]

This is the claim recorded in The History of Intercept Radar and the British Night Fighter 1935-1959, by Ian White, although he only includes the pilot's report.  He does not state which fighter squadron (if any) the FIU crew were operating with: previous radar interceptions June/July had been made by 29, 23 and an unknown Squadron.  (PS in an appendix the unit is described as the FIU.)

 

ZQ codes were indeed used by the FIU, but unfortunately Combat Codes does not refer to any Blenheims, the first date being for their Beaufighters in 8.40.  The FIU was based at Tangmere.  From a quick look the nearest NF unit was 600 at Manston, but I may not have caught them all.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Graham Boak

[Troy Smith]

46 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

From a quick look the nearest NF unit was 600 at Manston, but I may not have caught them all.

Quote

The first Beaufighter was delivered to RAF Tangmere for trials with the Fighter Interception Unit on 12 August 1940, and the first operational machines were received by 29 Squadron and 604 Squadron on 2 September.[11]

 

On 19/06/2015 at 00:08, ClaudioN said:

I'd say 'BQ', no. 600 Sqdn., fighter Blenheims

Claudio

 

Just it is interesting that uncoded possibly FIU Beaufighter is with 600 Sq Blenhiems.   I didn't post the photo as 600 Sq had  note been mentioned before.

HTH

 

[Graham Boak]

Given that one of the previous interceptions had been using an FIU controller at Tangmere, my reference to other units may well be a red herring.  It just seemed quite possible that they might be operating from an established NF base using one of that unit's aircraft.

 

YO is 1 (Canadian) Sq., which is quoted as being at Northolt in August.  600 left Northolt in July.  The dates don't quite line up, unless there has been some "smoothing" along the way.

 

As a matter of interest, the FIU claim was the sixth night success, and only on the second night that any successes were made.

[Guldager]

If I have understood your replys correct, going through the links, the a/c in question is L6836 coded ZQ but till now I haven't found the individual letter.

 

Also as I read the links it still has the day time camouflage on top but is black at the bottom.

 

If any one knows the individual letter - then please

 

Thank you so much for supplying the links.

 

Steen

 

 

[Graham Boak]

On 2/24/2019 at 4:25 PM, Guldager said:

described on Wikipedia as:

 

"In the German night-bombing raid on London on 18 June 1940, Blenheims accounted for five German bombers, thus proving that they were better-suited for night fighting.

 

Picking up on this, three of the Heinkels shot down on the night of 18/19th were shot down by 19 Sq Spitfire pilots, and another 19 squadron Spitfire was involved in a fourth, but was shot down by return fire.  This bomber was finished off by a Blenheim.  Two other Heinkels were shot down by Blenheims, but one other Blenheim was lost in these combats and the pilot of a second killed.  (Yes, that's six and I said five above ...sorry.)    Quite how this translates into the superiority of the Blenheim as a night fighter I cannot see.

 

Separately, the Blenheims in the photo above have Sky ubndersides.  Ditto the Beaus, of course.  Similarly the close up of the nacelle-mounted aerial on the rear cover of White's book looks very much as though the port wing still has a light underside - but when was this taken?

Edited February 26, 2019 by Graham Boak

[Seahawk]

7 hours ago, Guldager said:

If I have understood your replys correct, going through the links, the a/c in question is L6836 coded ZQ but till now I haven't found the individual letter.

I think it would be safer to say that FIU's allocated code was ZQ so that, if the aircraft wore a code at all, it would have been ZQ-x.  The question is when the unit started wearing codes.  Graham has cited evidence of FIU Beaufighters wearing them (so after Aug 40 and possibly much later).  Ray Sturtivant's RAF Flying Training and Support Units notes its use on a Hurricane I (L1592 ZQ-U) and a Boston I (AE461 ZQ-A) which suggests early use but not necessarily by July 1940.  

 

PS Another vote for 22-23 July, L6836 and Ashfield/Leyland/Morris for the FIU victory.  Sources: Night Fighter by Anthony Robinson, Ian Allen, 1988, p.33, Bristol Blenheim by Graham Warner, Crecy, 2005, p.239.

 

As regards the possible Northolt connection, the following from Bristol Beaufighter by Jerry Scutts, Crowood, 2004: "Pre-service trials led to the delivery of R2066 to the Tangmere Special Flight on 12 August 1940.  This was consequently the first Beaufighter to serve in an RAF unit.  The FIU, based at Northolt [my emphasis] received R2055 on 13 August."  I am not sure what weight, if any, to attach to this: I can't find Tangmere Special Flight in Sturtivant's op cit and Northolt does not figure at all in Sturtivant's entry for the FIU.

[Graham Boak]

Sky undersides not black (Night).

 

Looking further into White's book, he states that at the time of the interception the FIU was involved in a series of trials with AI Mk.IV, rather than the Mk.III or IIIA that Fighter Command was struggling with.  He doesn't specifically identify the aircraft involved, other than it carried the same array as on L4846.  This means the more familiar double arrowhead in the nose and the swept-back aerials on the wings.  Or rather, could be different.  If the FIU were actually still conducting parallel trials, then L6836 could still have had the earlier Mk.III.

 

Perhaps the full original report is available at the NA?  White is quoting from The Signals History, vol.5

Edited February 25, 2019 by Graham Boak

[Stop the Pigeon]

Looking on Wiki the Order of Battle for September 1940 (not July found thus far) The RAF Ford Blenheims were 23 Sqn as a part of the sector station of RAF Tangmere. The Sqn code was YP from Sep 39-May 45. The Sqn commander in Sep 40 was Sqn Ldr George Francis Wheaton Heycock. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_Royal_Air_Force_stations

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Stop the Pigeon
added website where info from

[Welkin]

On 2/25/2019 at 6:57 AM, Seahawk said:

I think it would be safer to say that FIU's allocated code was ZQ so that, if the aircraft wore a code at all, it would have been ZQ-x.  The question is when the unit started wearing codes.  Graham has cited evidence of FIU Beaufighters wearing them (so after Aug 40 and possibly much later).  Ray Sturtivant's RAF Flying Training and Support Units notes its use on a Hurricane I (L1592 ZQ-U) and a Boston I (AE461 ZQ-A) which suggests early use but not necessarily by July 1940. 

Resurrecting this old thread, I have just managed to secure Airfix's earlier boxing of the Blenheim IF (hard to find, but the later one doesn't have the sprue with the gun-pack).

I am going to build Ashfield's L6836 but haven't been able to get much more information than above about the aircraft's markings.

She has an even-numbered serial, so I assume type 'A' DE/DG on top, but no idea whether she would have had black/white or all-black undersides?

Code 'ZQ' in grey, but probably no individual code letter in July 1940?

Bowyer in 'Fighting Colours' lists Blenheim IF L6837 of FIU in July 1940 with unit code ZQ but no individual letter.

Graham Warner's book states that "L6836 was damaged during a raid on Tangmere on 16 August"; sent to Cuncliffe Owen for major repairs, but damaged again during another raid on 19 September and SOC.

Radar would have been A.I. Mk.III.

Given the work that FIU were doing in the development of radar I suspect that there are few, if any, photographs of their Blenheim aircraft.

I am hoping that whatever I decide no-one will be able to prove that I am wrong!

 

[Ed Russell]

On 11/8/2022 at 12:31 AM, Welkin said:

Radar would have been A.I. Mk.III.

This thread has a helpful diagram. From the above posts, the FIU did not remove turrets at that stage, so ignore that note. According to my reasoning, the photo of the plane I modelled has Sky undersides.

 

[Welkin]

Thanks for posting your thread; I have got the diagram with the aerial positions.

 

I think that the change to sky undersides came after L6836 was damaged on 16 August, so I imagine that she retained the standard black/white finish, with black control surfaces until SOC.

 

Interestingly Ashfield also scored the second AI kill on the 7 November 1940; I can't find any details about that, but it presumably was another Blenheim IF?

FIU was very proud of the fact that, despite not being an operational unit of the RAF, its crews shot down the first enemy aircraft to be destroyed by every type of AI, from Mk.III to Mk.X!