Question about RAF Bostons - 3 crew or 4?

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello all,

Most of the available references state that  Bostons are 3 place aircraft. But the RAF Bostons in Europe seem to have 4 man crews. Is this correct?

 

regards,

TW

[72modeler]

Tony,

 

Maybe the 4th crewman was there to man the tunnel gun, when fitted? Can't think of anyplace else in a Boston you could squeeze another body!

Mike

[Graham Boak]

I've recently seen a reference to two gunners in RAF Bostons, so that would imply 4-man crews.  I think this was a reference to Mediterranean-based ones.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Best bet is to check 88Sqn records at the NA, for the aircraft or date/s you want this should give a crew list for the mission

 

preview is low def but free 

 

i.e. 

 

preview shows 

 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8455193

 

shows three crew  in november 1942

 

    cheers

       jerry 

Edited February 24, 2019 by brewerjerry

[Sydhuey]

RAF Boston's just about always ran 4 man crews, Navigator/Bomb Aimer in nose, Pilot in Cockpit, 2 x gunners in rear cockpit , usually Senior Gunner/Wireless operator in upper position and the junior Gunner on the belly gun . 

[Tony Whittingham]

Thanks to you all, for your kind responses!

 

cheers,

TW

[Finn]

This manual:

 

Boston

 

pg 51 of the reader mentions an upper gunner and lower gunner which confirms a 4 man crew.

 

Jari

Edited February 24, 2019 by Finn

[brewerjerry]

43 minutes ago, Finn said:

This manual:

 

Boston

 

pg 51 of the reader mentions an upper gunner and lower gunner which confirms a 4 man crew.

 

Jari

Hi

    quite possible some squadrons flew with four crew

 

    but to confirm the crew size on a particular squadron,

 

   in this thread the tag is 88sqn 

 

    it is best to view the squadron summary of events for accuracy

 i.e. 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8455193

 

  which shows the squadron was flying missions with a three man crew in november 1942 

 

     cheers

       jerry

   

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by brewerjerry

[Sydhuey]

39 minutes ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi

    quite possible some squadrons flew with four crew

 

    but to confirm the crew size on a particular squadron,

 

   in this thread the tag is 88sqn 

 

    it is best to view the squadron summary of events for accuracy

 i.e. 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8455193

 

  which shows the squadron was flying missions with a three man crew in november 1942 

 

     cheers

       jerry

   

 

 

Yep when 88 first got Boston's they ran 3 man crews , but later all the Sqn records I have for 88, 342, 107, 226 in Europe and 18, , 114 in Italy they ran 4 man crews almost all the time. 

[brewerjerry]

1 hour ago, Sydhuey said:

Yep when 88 first got Boston's they ran 3 man crews , but later all the Sqn records I have for 88, 342, 107, 226 in Europe and 18, , 114 in Italy they ran 4 man crews almost all the time. 

Hi

    So a change over date, presumably when they had enough trained aircrew

  end of 1943 or start of 1944 ? 

 

 Always something to learn in this hobby

     cheers

       jerry

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by brewerjerry

[Seahawk]

From A-20 Boston At War (William J Hess, Ian Allen, 1979), p.33, in discussion of CIRCUS operations by Jim Mansell, ex air gunner/radio operator on 88 Sq:

 

"For this type of operation the usual crew of three became a crew of four with the addition of an air gunner.  The German fighters had quickly learned that the Boston was vulnerable under the tail.  Because of the upswept tailplane it was not possible to bring the top guns to bear on a fighter climbing straight up under the tail.  Accordingly, another gun position was improvised.  A single bar mounting which carried a Vickers gas-operated machine gun could be swung down across the rear escape hatch.  The air gunner then lay on the floor of the aircraft, head towards the rear, and fired at any enemy fighter coming up under the tail.  By using all tracer, it became a very useful scare gun."

 

(Sounds a fun way of spending your day.)  However the succeeding account, by F/L Aubrey Niner, also of 88 Sq, describes a 3-man crew on his final operation (shot down) on 19 July 1942, as does Paul Lambermont when describing his Boston operation on D-Day with 342 Sq.

 

The book is an excellent source of first-hand accounts by Boston/Havoc crews, including Turbinlites and the guy who allegedly (he doesn't sound too convinced himself) scored a kill with MUTTON long aerial mines.

[Sydhuey]

Going thru the Sqn operational pages early on 41/42 they tended to have 3 man crews (probably std crews from Blenheim IV's onto Boston's) then increase to 4 man but looking at individual missions it varied, going thru 43 and 44 you may have 10 aircraft on a mission , 8 may have 4 man and 2 may have 3 man , not a hard and fast rule on crewing though most aircraft on the mission logs had 4.

[Andrew Mackenzie]

Late to the game I'm afraid. But, if it's not too late, it depends what height they were bombing from. They typically bombed from one of three heights: 'on the deck' below 500ft; 8,000 - 9,000 and 11,000 - 14,000. For the two higher levels they had a 4 man crew: pilot, bombardier/navigator, radio operator/rear gunner with twin 303s in the top position and a gunner with a single 303 firing through the bottom entrance hatch, just behind the top gunner position.

 

In all but 6 of my Dad's 50 ops they had a four man crew.

[BS_w]

Havoc I & II, & Boston III : 3 crew , the rear gunner could move upper to lower

Boston IV : 4 crew, there was two rear gunners, upper(turret) and lower

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by BS_w

[Graham Boak]

A couple of points: I don't think that the lower gun position was improvised but it was in the design from the beginning.  Yes, the intention was for a 3-man crew but practice will have rapidly shown up the other-worldliness of the idea and, as stated above, in practice they often flew with four.

 

Other British bombers (eg Halifax) also flew with an additional gunner when a ventral gun was fitted.