Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

Johnv

Heller F-86F question

Recommended Posts

I just received mine in the post. I built a few of these and old Airfix, same mold.

It touts it as an early F-86F, that would have the F-86E wing but upgraded engine.

I was looking at the wing and it is slatted BUT it looks almost like a 6-3 wing not

a narrow chord wing. It has extra lines which I think the Canadair Sabre 6 had. I am

looking for an early F that had the slatted wing and served in Korea but most of my

references show Fs with the hard wing and fence. I guess I could get decals for an

E as there are tons of those and just "overlook" the Sabre 6 wing and call it good.

Does anyone know of any early F with slats decals in 1/72nd scale?---John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

I think no correct early 1/72 F-86E in the market until now. I have the same problem too. I purchased Academy F-86E, and  I will build from it an Avon Sabre 6 too for the same reason .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Short answer to your question is no.

 

The Academy F-86E is the closest thing to what you're looking for but finding it is one thing, the other thing is it's really a Sabre 5 or 6 (I can't recall which).

 

It doesn't have the early windscreen of A's and early E's and of course it has the wide chord, slatted wing as well as a few other issues.

 

I live in hope of a 1/72nd series of A/early E/later slat wing E's...  ... maybe Special Hobby will treat us?

Edited by Wez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Johnv said:

I just received mine in the post. I built a few of these and old Airfix, same mold.

It touts it as an early F-86F, that would have the F-86E wing but upgraded engine.

I was looking at the wing and it is slatted BUT it looks almost like a 6-3 wing not

a narrow chord wing. It has extra lines which I think the Canadair Sabre 6 had. I am

looking for an early F that had the slatted wing and served in Korea but most of my

references show Fs with the hard wing and fence. I guess I could get decals for an

E as there are tons of those and just "overlook" the Sabre 6 wing and call it good.

Does anyone know of any early F with slats decals in 1/72nd scale?---John

John,

 

Closest kit with positionable slats are the Hobbycraft or Academy F-86F's; while they do have separate slats and are the correct span for an F-86E and  F, they molded the wings with the 6-3 leading edge extension. That being said, it is very easy to remove the 6-3 section from each wing behind the slat mounts and then re-attach the slats. If you want to do one with the slats in, then the Hasegawa or Airfix F-86D kits both have a correct slatted wing, IIRC. We have had a ton of discussion, photos, diagrams, etc. on this very subject, so you might want to search for and read them- TONS of outstanding modeling details in there, many by our resident Sabre savants, @Sabrejet  and @Courageous Good luck on your build- there's no such thing as too many Sabres!

Mike

 

Ooh, before I forget- the wings in the Heller kit have the wrong sweep angle- too much sweep IIRC.

Edited by 72modeler
added additional text

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, I know all about the slats, wing chord. I built the Hobbycraft F-86E

with the extended slats. I was NOT looking at doing the slats, what I really

was getting at was is there any decals for an early slatted F-86F in Korea.

Yes the wing sweep is wrong but I can live with that and the slats up. I just

want to know if it served in Korea. Oh and also all F-86 kits have the drop tanks

too far out on the wing. They should be at station 99, so far I have had to reposition

all my Sabres I have built. In 1/72nd scale the tanks should be approximately 70 mm

or 2 3/4" from center to center of tanks.---John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the wing tanks corrected. Most 1/72 kits are about 10 mm off. Here is Heller's

mounting holes at approximately 82 mm and Hobbycrafts which I corrected at approximately

70 mm. I have seen some at different locations but I think those were fighter bombers with

bomb pylons. Just to clarify this boondoogle North American says drop tanks are to be at station

99....that is 99 inches from the aircraft center to the drop tank center on the wing. 99 inches

is 2514.6 mm, in 1/72 scale thats 34.92 mm which I rounded to 35 mm giving you 70 mm center

to center of drop tanks.---John

h2the7G.jpg

9eqALUp.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as I can tell, their are no 1/72 F-86F-10 decals 'directly'. When I posted a query about FB Sabres of Korea I found this decal sheet by Print Scale 72-079.

7207903.jpg&key=97422a091976de1ba3cb9093

Options 7 & 8 state that they are F-30's but @72modelerbelieves that option 7, FU-427, is in fact an F-10/15 and the b/w photo for option 8 doesn't show an F-30  either with those slatted wings, most likely an early -F.

Sabrejet posted this on my thread, might be useful for the future.

40148530503_930e357923_b.jpg&key=f2b22f0

 

HTH

 

Stuart

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Courageous, thanks for posting those F-86 drawings showing the tank dimensions.

I have never heard that terminology, buttock according to the dictionary is 2 fleshy

appendages on the human posterior pelvic region, AKA your butt! Buttocks plane? Really?

LMAO on that one.---John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im sure @Tony Edmundson compared all the Sabre kits wings at some point, however I cant seem to find that info.

 

Julien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julien and Johnv,

 

There's this one:

http://www.blindbatnews.com/2011/10/kit-bashing-heller-fujimi-hobbycraft-f-86-sabre-kits-compared/8203

 

Here are all the wing variations explained:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=129670

 

Hope these help both of you!

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike! The more info the better!---John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI: 'Buttock Plane' seems to be standard terminology for the F-86, though often shortened to 'Butt Plane' or more often just 'B.P.'. Most aircraft these days use 'station' or 'frame' to denote fuselage fore-aft positioning, and 'rib' to denote inboard-outboard. Back in the day we also used 'Water Line' (W.L.) to indicate where something was in an up-down direction (especially if you found damage). So you'd say something like, "Dent at Station 117.0, Water Line 22.0" - in other words 117 inches aft of the forward datum and 22 inches up from the bottom of the fuselage (the latter depends on where the WL datum is set).

 

Wing station/BP explanation was here:

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235051274-f-86-sabre-usaf-fighter-bomber-unit-korea/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To expand a little on Sabrejet’s excellent explanation, the practice and nomenclature was a carryover from the “lofting” (defining the shape) of boat hulls. Station was the fore and aft reference; Water Line, up and down: and Buttock, left and right. U.S. practice is generally Fuselage Station, FS (and 0 was often ahead of the nose); Water Line, WL (with 0 almost always being far enough below the fuselage so there were no negative numbers); and Butt Line, BL (with zero being on the centerline).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

U.S. practice is generally Fuselage Station, FS (and 0 was often ahead of the nose)...

 

I recall that FS '0' on the C-130 is well ahead of the nose and I was told that this is because 'zero' was the start point of the production jig. Not sure if that's true but would make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

To expand a little on Sabrejet’s excellent explanation, the practice and nomenclature was a carryover from the “lofting” (defining the shape) of boat hulls. Station was the fore and aft reference; Water Line, up and down: and Buttock, left and right. U.S. practice is generally Fuselage Station, FS (and 0 was often ahead of the nose); Water Line, WL (with 0 almost always being far enough below the fuselage so there were no negative numbers); and Butt Line, BL (with zero being on the centerline).

As a former loftsman/draughtsman this is true, though outside of books I can never recall the term "buttock" being used in the shipyard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sabrejet said:

 

I recall that FS '0' on the C-130 is well ahead of the nose and I was told that this is because 'zero' was the start point of the production jig. Not sure if that's true but would make sense.

Maybe in that case but in general it’s to allow for lengthening the forward fuselage if needs be while retaining the FS numbers for structure aft of the increase and also not going to negative FS numbers. Grumman engineers managed to get very confusing in this regard on the change from the F9F-2/3 to the F9F-4/5. See the drawing note here: http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/05/accurate-three-view-drawings.html

 

Also see the McDonnell use of “Buttock” in an F2H drawing in the same post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

Maybe in that case but in general it’s to allow for lengthening the forward fuselage if needs be while retaining the FS numbers for structure aft of the increase and also not going to negative FS numbers. Grumman engineers managed to get very confusing in this regard on the change from the F9F-2/3 to the F9F-4/5. See the drawing note here: http://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2012/05/accurate-three-view-drawings.html

 

Also see the McDonnell use of “Buttock” in an F2H drawing in the same post.

Interesting, and confusing in one. Maybe the buttock term is one that fell from use.

 

Also interesting the full scale plans issue. While we never got to that stage with ships I have seen full scale lofts in chalk on the floor for certain areas in particular for the subs. There are some areas with strange curves which surprisingly made more sense drawn out than they did on CAD if that makes sense?

Julien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/23/2019 at 2:26 PM, Courageous said:

 

 

Options 7 & 8 state that they are F-30's but @72modelerbelieves that option 7, FU-427, is in fact an F-10/15 and the b/w photo for option 8 doesn't show an F-30  either with those slatted wings, most likely an early -F.

 

Stuart

 

 

FU-427 is a F-86F-30, option 8 is a -30 also

 

F-86F-30 serial numbers started at 52-4305 until 52-5163

 

HTH, Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tony Edmundson said:

F-86F-30 serial numbers started at 52-4305 until 52-5163

Thanks for that Tony, I thought that -30's were all hard 6-3 wings?

 

Stuart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tony,

 

Wow, my head is about to explode! I have several photos of an F-86F with slatted wings labeled as being the mount of Col. Walter Benz, who as the wartime C.O. of the 8th, and they all show a fighter-bomber Sabre with slatted wings, along with the three-color tail and nose stripes of a wing commander. One is in the new FAOW series, volume 20, on the F-86, page 26, which shows it parked next to a 51st FIW kite; ordnance is stacked in  front of it, and the slats are deployed, but the serial/buzz number is unreadable! There is a color photo of one (More on that later!) more of his Sabres on p78 of the Warren Thompson book F-86 Sabre Fighter-Bomber Units Over Korea that is captioned as showing a Maj. Boychuck boarding a Sabre assigned to the 8th C.O.- it has slats deployed, but the serial number on the fin appears to be 52-4425.  There are two other color photos in the same reference, p62 and p100 that show 52-4460 in the air and on the ground that are probably 6-3 wing F-86F-30's but in neither photo is there a wing fence at the 2/3 span! In the video I posted earlier of 36th FS 8th FBG Sabres, there is a segment that shows 52-4425 parked in its revetment with the markings of the C.O. with slats deployed! I am soooo confused!

 

I know Forgotten Jets lists 52-4425, 52-4427, and 52-4460 as all being F-86F-30's, but if so, why do photos of the last two  jets listed show them w/o the wing fences?

 

I have no doubt that the information you have posted is correct, as I have come to respect your expertise and your references; I know  that both Col. Benz and later on Col. Wilmot most likely flew in more than one Sabre during their tours. I have plenty of references to build Col. Wilmot's F-8F-30, 'Miss Teena' as it is clearly a -30 with the 6-3 wing and fences, but it appears from the photos that Col. Benz's Sabres were both slatted wing and 6-3 wing F-86's...I am just puzzled as to why photos of the ones whose  serial numbers indicate them to be -30's show them to be without wing fences!  Clearly Benz flew both types,  and onehad no lettering on the LH side of the nose, one had 'The Old Man' and another had 'The Dirty Old Man' on the nose. I just want to get this right, as a tribute to both men, one of whom I knew personally.

 

Can you help me, @Tony Edmundson? Or maybe @Sabrejet?

Mike

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simples: NAA at Columbus and Inglewood introduced them, but not at the same time, and not aligned with a particular subtype/block. I can only assume that, since the Columbus-built F-86Fs were not headed to Korea, their equipping took a lesser priority. Thus, factory-fitted '6-3' wings were introduced on the 171st Columbus-built F-86F-25 (51-13341) and the 200th Inglewood F-86F-30 (52-4505). 51-13341 was delivered on 19 May 1953; 52-4505 on 30 January.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SJ,

 

Am I correct in  assuming from the serial range you posted above that 52-4425, -4427, and -4460 would have been delivered with the standard chord, slatted wing, but could have, and probably did, going by photos, get the 6-3 wing installed as a factory-supplied kit?  Because of my affiliation with the 8th FBG and Col. Wilmot especially, I want to get these two Sabres right as a small tribute to them. There are  some photos of at least one of Col. Benz's F-86F's that were taken from above that show bombs and belts of .50cal rounds arranged in front of it, but the serials aren't visible, nor are they indicated in the photo captions, doggone it! I will keep looking for the photos, but can't for the life of me remember in  which reference book I saw them. (Bet that never happens to you!) I had vaguely recalled reading somewhere that the 1st 200 -30's did not have the 6-3 wing, but I had no idea what their serials were- thanks, as always, for that little bit of Sabre trivia. One more question- were there any F-86F-25's or F-30's that had the 6-3 wing fitted  but no wing fences? Like maybe any Sabres that used  the factory 6-3 wing kit? (My thinking being if so, that might account for a Sabre in photos that had the 6-3 wing but no wing fence visible?)  I defer to your infinite wisdom, you being the Sabre Savant!

Mike 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, 72modeler said:

  were there any F-86F-25's or F-30's that had the 6-3 wing fitted  but no wing fences? Like maybe any Sabres that used  the factory 6-3 wing kit? (My thinking being if so, that might account for a Sabre in photos that had the 6-3 wing but no wing fence visible?)  I defer to your infinite wisdom, you being the Sabre Savant!

Mike 

no, the 6-3 wing had a fence, period.   No fence means the original short chord slatted wing.

 

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks, Tony!

 

That means I'm not going crazy! Some of those photos I have seen of F-86F's that are labeled as -30's that have no wing fences visible must be from the early production run that Sabrejet alluded to. That solves that mystery!

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...