Jump to content
This site uses cookies! Learn More

This site uses cookies!

You can find a list of those cookies here: mysite.com/cookies

By continuing to use this site, you agree to allow us to store cookies on your computer. :)

twinpin

TBM3W Avenger colours.

Recommended Posts

Planning to build the Sword Kon Marine TBM3W Avenger. Sword show this in a dark and light grey scheme. Anyone know FS or other references  for these colours and when they were used ?.  Only photographs found show dark grey top and duck egg green below.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for your prompt reply. 

 

The FS 16099 and 14424 scheme is not what Sword are showing on their artwork.  Have a look at the link below.

 

http://swordmodels.cz/en/172/134-sw72115-tbm-3w-guppy-laeronavalekonmarine.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky, FS 16099 and 14424,

I suspect from the names these are British colours,  so giving FS 595 'matches'  can be misleading,  as FS595 are US Government paint standards,  it's not a colour atlas. It's widely quoted as it is commonly used in the US, and as such it's a widely available set of paint chips, and is convenient, but what happens is "close to FS595 xxxxx"  becomes "matched by FS595 xxxxx"

 

If that case is they are British paints, these have there own standards,  and are also widely available as model colours,  notice the linked site has Humbrol and xtracolor matches, eg Light Green/Sky is Humbrol 90, which is RAF or FAA Sky.

 so the question really is, did the Netherlands Navy use British paint?  Or where did their Avengers come from? 

Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky and are the standard FAA colours post war as well, the Netherlands Navy used several British types, and maybe well have standardised on the paint used on them?  

FWIW the colours on the Sword profile look like those used on Canadian Navy Sea Fury, with a pale grey underside,   

sw72115-tbm-3w-guppy-laeronavalekonmarin

 

 

Note @twinpin

this would have been better in the Cold War Section, and if you use 'edit'  then select 'full edit' you can change your thread heading to "colours of TBM-3W Netherland Navy"  as this shows at a glance what you are asking.

 

I stuck "tbm-3w avenger netherlands doorman"  into google

9v1VrC1.jpg&key=2ca76146bd7a7d183b860e78

 

https://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=650:grumman-tbm-3-avenger-uk&catid=88&lang=en&Itemid=550&showall=1&limitstart=

 

Quote

At delivery al aircraft were overall MidNight Blue with white serials. 
The spinner was applied with the colour of the squadron, squadron 2 Red; squadron 4, blue and squadron 1, white. 
The roundels were applied in six positions and a fin flash on the vertical stabilizer. The aircraft number was also applied on the cowling.

 

After an complete overhaul, end of the fifties the Avengers TBM-3S and TBM-3W were sprayed in a new two tone colour scheme with dark grey upper surfaces and sky lower surfaces.

Serials were applied in black and repeated on de left underside of the wing and on the front of the fuselage between the wing and the cowling.

in the link the Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky are given BS (British Standards) references, so I would suggest they are standard British colours. 

 

Other may know more.

 

HTH

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These are STANAG 3089 colours and referenced in Dutch military manuals of the day as the names and colours listed above (FS 26099 and 24424), the same colours as those the UK supplied planes came in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for replies - great photograph of 056 on the carrier deck.  


I would like to build the kit in the "Medium and Light grey" scheme as in the sword kit just wanted references for these colours and if possible find pics/info of the actual aircraft in this scheme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, twinpin said:

I would like to build the kit in the "Medium and Light grey" scheme as in the sword kit

well, your model, it has been shown that the Sword illustration is wrong.   

1 hour ago, twinpin said:

just wanted references for these colours and if possible find pics/info of the actual aircraft in this scheme.

without meaning to be funny, search.   I got the answers i gave above that way, though I'm aware of what schemes often are, this made me curious, hence posting.

and do you want to go with the (incorrect) kit scheme of dark grey/light grey or the actual scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky (these are the actual paint names, hence the capitals)

If I was going to use a grey I'd suggest Medium Sea Grey,  but if you have got as far as asking here, then just use the right colours.

what paint do you use?  That would be easiest,   there are "matches " for these in many paint ranges

for example...

 

 

 

21 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

These are STANAG 3089 colours and referenced in Dutch military manuals of the day as the names and colours listed above (FS 26099 and 24424), the same colours as those the UK supplied planes came in.

 

if they are the UK colours, do not use FS595 to describe them,  if you must  then you need to say "closest FS595 match is"   

 

for example, putting FS 26099 into the epaint  

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=Federal Standard 595&cRef=26099&metallic2=False&cDescription=Gray

"colour alternatives" lists BS 638 Dark Sea Grey as "noticeably different"   and it's not even EXTRA Dark Sea Grey 

 

BS640, Extra dark Sea Grey  closest FS 595 match is AMS 595A  36079 Navy Gray #2 

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 640&metallic2=False&cDescription=Extra dark sea grey

 

BS 381C  210 Sky is "Close but distinguishable  " Federal Standard 595 34424 Light gray green / ANA 610

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381 210&metallic2=False&cDescription=Sky

 

This may sound horribly pedantic, but using US color standards  to "match" British colour standards leads to, well, people quoting FS 595 s matches for BS381.... and they are not the same.  

In this case,  it's just adds a layer of confusion, as the OP really wants to know what those Avenger were painted, and  the answer is the British colours Extra Dark Sea Grey and  Sky 

 

If for example you only have access to a 595 chip set, and you want to know a BS or RAL colour,   then knowing what is closest is a start,  but does need qualifying. 

 

Hope of interest/use.....? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See also: https://www.ipms.nl/artikelen/nedmil-luchtvaart/vliegtuigen-g/vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger.

 

Extra Dark Sea Grey/Sky

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Link incomplete.  had a search 

for ease of use

https://www.ipms.nl/artikelen/nedmil-luchtvaart/vliegtuigen-g/vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger/2862-vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger-4-foto

 

a couple of the colour pics are very washed out and the undersides could be mistaken for a light grey, which may explain where Sword got the idea from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all for a lot of good information.  It seems that the simple answer is that Sword have got the colours wrong.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/19/2019 at 11:36 PM, Troy Smith said:

This may sound horribly pedantic, but using US color standards  to "match" British colour standards leads to, well, people quoting FS 595 s matches for BS381.... and they are not the same.  

In this case,  it's just adds a layer of confusion, as the OP really wants to know what those Avenger were painted, and  the answer is the British colours Extra Dark Sea Grey and  Sky

Thanks. If I ever meet the Dutchmen who did exactly this in the 1950s manuals, I'll tell them. Nevertheless, like I said before, they did use FS 26099 and 24424 to explain what they meant by Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume this was late 1950s? Federal Standard 595 was first created in 1956.

 

Interesting that the Dutch opted for US approximations of British colours though, unless the aircraft were bought new from the US painted at the factory ib US equivalent shades? I don't know much about the Dutch TBMs to be honest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

Thanks. If I ever meet the Dutchmen who did exactly this in the 1950s manuals, I'll tell them. Nevertheless, like I said before, they did use FS 26099 and 24424 to explain what they meant by Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky.

 

OK,  my point was about the perils of using FS 595 to represent British paints. 

 

In the links,  I made it clear that they are not "the same" but it should be noted that 24424 is listed as ANA 610,  which was approved by the British as an substitute for Sky,  when they got the Avenger II, (Eastern built TBM) along with ANA 603 Gray and ANA 613 OD

it also notes that there are not exact FS 595 for ANA color matches...

 

There is no doubt the Dutch TBM-3W are Dark Grey  over Sky,    what is in question is if they are the British colours, or US Substitute colors, as they are close, but not the same.  

 

9 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I assume this was late 1950s? Federal Standard 595 was first created in 1956.

 

Interesting that the Dutch opted for US approximations of British colours though, unless the aircraft were bought new from the US painted at the factory ib US equivalent shades? I don't know much about the Dutch TBMs to be honest.

in this link, but a long way down , 

Quote

At delivery al aircraft were overall MidNight Blue with white serials. 
The spinner was applied with the colour of the squadron, squadron 2 Red; squadron 4, blue and squadron 1, white. 
The roundels were applied in six positions and a fin flash on the vertical stabilizer. The aircraft number was also applied on the cowling.

After an complete overhaul, end of the fifties the Avengers TBM-3S and TBM-3W were sprayed in a new two tone colour scheme with dark grey upper surfaces and sky lower surfaces.

Serials were applied in black and repeated on de left underside of the wing and on the front of the fuselage between the wing and the cowling.

 

Depends  on where they were overhauled?   

That would supply the answer, by this I mean that possibly the Avengers were overhauled in the UK as the Royal Navy had experience and parts for the types, as well as supplying other types for the Dutch Navy,

or did they go back to the US?   

Or were they overhauled in the Netherlands?  

By this I mean a UK overhaul would most likely be British paint, a US overhaul would be US paint,  the Netherlands?  my suspicion is the paint would more likely be British, as this was used on British types in Dutch service?   

 

perhaps our Dutch contributors @48-Alone-Is-Great and @Peter Rozendal might be able to  clarify on this aspect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The general point that, regardless of colour name, one should not assume a direct correlation between ANA colours and FS 595, and even less between British colours and FS 595, is well made and worthy of regular reiteration. 

 

However one small baby risks being thrown out with the bathwater: ANA 610 was not accepted by the British as a substitute for Sky, it WAS Sky.  See the following extracted from the Hellcat colours thread (Nick Millman's post 22) linked by Troy:

 

"It was. Joint Aircraft Committee Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage meeting recommendation dated 28 July 1942:-

'A (6) That the British Extra Dark Sea Gray be accepted as standard, and the Navy proposed Dark Blue and Blue Gray, British Ocean Gray and Army Neutral Gray be eliminated. That the name of the Extra Dark Sea Gray be changed to Sea Gray (ANA 603).

(7) That the Navy Light Gray (ANA 602) be adopted as standard and the British Sea Gray Medium be eliminated

(On 19 January 1944 this was revised to adopt Navy Gull Gray Dark as standard [ANA 621] and British Sea Gray Medium and Navy Light Gray [ANA 602] were to be eliminated)

(11) That the Army Dark Olive Drab (ANA 613) be accepted as standard and the British Dark Slate Gray and Dark Green be eliminated.

(13) That the British Sky Type S gray be accepted as standard (ANA 610).'" (My highlighting.)

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The best reference I have on this subject is a book called "De geschiedenis van Camouflage en kentekens op vliegtuigen van de Nederlandse strijdkrachten" (A history of camouflage and markings on aircraft of the Dutch armed forces) by J. Greuter, M. Schep, L. Boerman and J. Bossong published in 1997.

 

On page 136 of this book it states: Starting february 1st 1954 the agreed colours as specified in STANAG (Standard Agreement) 3089 came into force.

According to this agreement the colours for carrier aircraft were:

 - topsides: Extra Dark Sea Grey

 - Undersides: Sky or white

 

The Dutch TBM-3W Avengers were deliverd in 1953, before the introduction of this STANAG. They were all delivered in the then standard US Navy colour of overall ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue

 

It was decided to introduce the STANAG colours gradually and use the dutch industry for this during the aircrafts next major overhaul.

 

As 48-Alone-is-great stated above the Dutch navy identified the colours as FS ~6099 for extra dark sea and FS ~4424 for Sky.

 

To make matters more confusing (page 144 of the above book) on some documents the colours are referred to according to the Sikkens Standaard Vliegtuigkleuren (Sikkens Standard Aircraftcolours).

 

As I don't have actual samples of either the Sikkens colours or the British colours I cannot say if the Sikkens colours more closely matches the British colours or the American FS colours, or are maybe an actual third colour that matches neither.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All of this does show us that the actual regulators and painters seem to have been less obsessed with absolute exact colour matches as we are.

If to them Extra Dark Sea Grey and FS 26099 are one and the same, then to us they should be too, certainly for the planes involved.

Edited by 48-Alone-Is-Great

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said:

 

If to them Extra Dark Sea Grey and FS 26099 are one and the same, then to us they should be too, certainly for the planes involved.

 

That still doesn't tell us which they actually used.  If they are different then they will look different when new - and quite possibly more so when faded.  However lacking any large number of colour photos, good luck with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello twinpin,

 

Be aware, in 1/72 scale I would advice you to NOT go for dark sea grey. Simply does not work for this scale.

This scale lend itself better to lighter colors.

Besides this, colors are changing the moment the aircraft is leaving the paint shop.

These aircraft could not always be stowed below decks, so salt and sun could make great changes.

I have studied paint schedules many times by Dutch Naval Aircraft in the West Indies over a seven year period. Put three next to each other and not one is exactly the same in color.

 

I personally am a great fan of Extra color using X007 RAF sky and X003 medium sea grey.

I can send you some excellent  color drawings from these planes.

You can contact me privately and I will send them to you.

Regards,

Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×