twinpin Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Planning to build the Sword Kon Marine TBM3W Avenger. Sword show this in a dark and light grey scheme. Anyone know FS or other references for these colours and when they were used ?. Only photographs found show dark grey top and duck egg green below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48-Alone-Is-Great Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky, FS 16099 and 14424, the 'later' scheme at: Colours of the Dutch Air Force, Part 2: Aviation of the Dutch Navy and the Colonies Edited February 18, 2019 by 48-Alone-Is-Great proper link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinpin Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 Thank you for your prompt reply. The FS 16099 and 14424 scheme is not what Sword are showing on their artwork. Have a look at the link below. http://swordmodels.cz/en/172/134-sw72115-tbm-3w-guppy-laeronavalekonmarine.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said: Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky, FS 16099 and 14424, I suspect from the names these are British colours, so giving FS 595 'matches' can be misleading, as FS595 are US Government paint standards, it's not a colour atlas. It's widely quoted as it is commonly used in the US, and as such it's a widely available set of paint chips, and is convenient, but what happens is "close to FS595 xxxxx" becomes "matched by FS595 xxxxx" If that case is they are British paints, these have there own standards, and are also widely available as model colours, notice the linked site has Humbrol and xtracolor matches, eg Light Green/Sky is Humbrol 90, which is RAF or FAA Sky. so the question really is, did the Netherlands Navy use British paint? Or where did their Avengers come from? Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky and are the standard FAA colours post war as well, the Netherlands Navy used several British types, and maybe well have standardised on the paint used on them? FWIW the colours on the Sword profile look like those used on Canadian Navy Sea Fury, with a pale grey underside, Note @twinpin this would have been better in the Cold War Section, and if you use 'edit' then select 'full edit' you can change your thread heading to "colours of TBM-3W Netherland Navy" as this shows at a glance what you are asking. I stuck "tbm-3w avenger netherlands doorman" into google https://kw.jonkerweb.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=650:grumman-tbm-3-avenger-uk&catid=88&lang=en&Itemid=550&showall=1&limitstart= Quote At delivery al aircraft were overall MidNight Blue with white serials. The spinner was applied with the colour of the squadron, squadron 2 Red; squadron 4, blue and squadron 1, white. The roundels were applied in six positions and a fin flash on the vertical stabilizer. The aircraft number was also applied on the cowling. After an complete overhaul, end of the fifties the Avengers TBM-3S and TBM-3W were sprayed in a new two tone colour scheme with dark grey upper surfaces and sky lower surfaces. Serials were applied in black and repeated on de left underside of the wing and on the front of the fuselage between the wing and the cowling. in the link the Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky are given BS (British Standards) references, so I would suggest they are standard British colours. Other may know more. HTH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48-Alone-Is-Great Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 These are STANAG 3089 colours and referenced in Dutch military manuals of the day as the names and colours listed above (FS 26099 and 24424), the same colours as those the UK supplied planes came in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinpin Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 Thank you all for replies - great photograph of 056 on the carrier deck. I would like to build the kit in the "Medium and Light grey" scheme as in the sword kit just wanted references for these colours and if possible find pics/info of the actual aircraft in this scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 1 hour ago, twinpin said: I would like to build the kit in the "Medium and Light grey" scheme as in the sword kit well, your model, it has been shown that the Sword illustration is wrong. 1 hour ago, twinpin said: just wanted references for these colours and if possible find pics/info of the actual aircraft in this scheme. without meaning to be funny, search. I got the answers i gave above that way, though I'm aware of what schemes often are, this made me curious, hence posting. and do you want to go with the (incorrect) kit scheme of dark grey/light grey or the actual scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky (these are the actual paint names, hence the capitals) If I was going to use a grey I'd suggest Medium Sea Grey, but if you have got as far as asking here, then just use the right colours. what paint do you use? That would be easiest, there are "matches " for these in many paint ranges for example... 21 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said: These are STANAG 3089 colours and referenced in Dutch military manuals of the day as the names and colours listed above (FS 26099 and 24424), the same colours as those the UK supplied planes came in. if they are the UK colours, do not use FS595 to describe them, if you must then you need to say "closest FS595 match is" for example, putting FS 26099 into the epaint https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=Federal Standard 595&cRef=26099&metallic2=False&cDescription=Gray "colour alternatives" lists BS 638 Dark Sea Grey as "noticeably different" and it's not even EXTRA Dark Sea Grey BS640, Extra dark Sea Grey closest FS 595 match is AMS 595A 36079 Navy Gray #2 https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS Other&cRef=BS 640&metallic2=False&cDescription=Extra dark sea grey BS 381C 210 Sky is "Close but distinguishable " Federal Standard 595 34424 Light gray green / ANA 610 https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381 210&metallic2=False&cDescription=Sky This may sound horribly pedantic, but using US color standards to "match" British colour standards leads to, well, people quoting FS 595 s matches for BS381.... and they are not the same. In this case, it's just adds a layer of confusion, as the OP really wants to know what those Avenger were painted, and the answer is the British colours Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky If for example you only have access to a 595 chip set, and you want to know a BS or RAL colour, then knowing what is closest is a start, but does need qualifying. Hope of interest/use.....? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Rozendal Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 See also: https://www.ipms.nl/artikelen/nedmil-luchtvaart/vliegtuigen-g/vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger. Extra Dark Sea Grey/Sky Regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Link incomplete. had a search for ease of use https://www.ipms.nl/artikelen/nedmil-luchtvaart/vliegtuigen-g/vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger/2862-vliegtuigen-g-grumman-avenger-4-foto a couple of the colour pics are very washed out and the undersides could be mistaken for a light grey, which may explain where Sword got the idea from. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twinpin Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 Thank you all for a lot of good information. It seems that the simple answer is that Sword have got the colours wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48-Alone-Is-Great Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 On 2/19/2019 at 11:36 PM, Troy Smith said: This may sound horribly pedantic, but using US color standards to "match" British colour standards leads to, well, people quoting FS 595 s matches for BS381.... and they are not the same. In this case, it's just adds a layer of confusion, as the OP really wants to know what those Avenger were painted, and the answer is the British colours Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky Thanks. If I ever meet the Dutchmen who did exactly this in the 1950s manuals, I'll tell them. Nevertheless, like I said before, they did use FS 26099 and 24424 to explain what they meant by Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 I assume this was late 1950s? Federal Standard 595 was first created in 1956. Interesting that the Dutch opted for US approximations of British colours though, unless the aircraft were bought new from the US painted at the factory ib US equivalent shades? I don't know much about the Dutch TBMs to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 9 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said: Thanks. If I ever meet the Dutchmen who did exactly this in the 1950s manuals, I'll tell them. Nevertheless, like I said before, they did use FS 26099 and 24424 to explain what they meant by Extra Dark Sea Grey and Sky. OK, my point was about the perils of using FS 595 to represent British paints. In the links, I made it clear that they are not "the same" but it should be noted that 24424 is listed as ANA 610, which was approved by the British as an substitute for Sky, when they got the Avenger II, (Eastern built TBM) along with ANA 603 Gray and ANA 613 OD it also notes that there are not exact FS 595 for ANA color matches... There is no doubt the Dutch TBM-3W are Dark Grey over Sky, what is in question is if they are the British colours, or US Substitute colors, as they are close, but not the same. 9 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: I assume this was late 1950s? Federal Standard 595 was first created in 1956. Interesting that the Dutch opted for US approximations of British colours though, unless the aircraft were bought new from the US painted at the factory ib US equivalent shades? I don't know much about the Dutch TBMs to be honest. in this link, but a long way down , Quote At delivery al aircraft were overall MidNight Blue with white serials. The spinner was applied with the colour of the squadron, squadron 2 Red; squadron 4, blue and squadron 1, white. The roundels were applied in six positions and a fin flash on the vertical stabilizer. The aircraft number was also applied on the cowling. After an complete overhaul, end of the fifties the Avengers TBM-3S and TBM-3W were sprayed in a new two tone colour scheme with dark grey upper surfaces and sky lower surfaces. Serials were applied in black and repeated on de left underside of the wing and on the front of the fuselage between the wing and the cowling. Depends on where they were overhauled? That would supply the answer, by this I mean that possibly the Avengers were overhauled in the UK as the Royal Navy had experience and parts for the types, as well as supplying other types for the Dutch Navy, or did they go back to the US? Or were they overhauled in the Netherlands? By this I mean a UK overhaul would most likely be British paint, a US overhaul would be US paint, the Netherlands? my suspicion is the paint would more likely be British, as this was used on British types in Dutch service? perhaps our Dutch contributors @48-Alone-Is-Great and @Peter Rozendal might be able to clarify on this aspect? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The general point that, regardless of colour name, one should not assume a direct correlation between ANA colours and FS 595, and even less between British colours and FS 595, is well made and worthy of regular reiteration. However one small baby risks being thrown out with the bathwater: ANA 610 was not accepted by the British as a substitute for Sky, it WAS Sky. See the following extracted from the Hellcat colours thread (Nick Millman's post 22) linked by Troy: "It was. Joint Aircraft Committee Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage meeting recommendation dated 28 July 1942:- 'A (6) That the British Extra Dark Sea Gray be accepted as standard, and the Navy proposed Dark Blue and Blue Gray, British Ocean Gray and Army Neutral Gray be eliminated. That the name of the Extra Dark Sea Gray be changed to Sea Gray (ANA 603). (7) That the Navy Light Gray (ANA 602) be adopted as standard and the British Sea Gray Medium be eliminated (On 19 January 1944 this was revised to adopt Navy Gull Gray Dark as standard [ANA 621] and British Sea Gray Medium and Navy Light Gray [ANA 602] were to be eliminated) (11) That the Army Dark Olive Drab (ANA 613) be accepted as standard and the British Dark Slate Gray and Dark Green be eliminated. (13) That the British Sky Type S gray be accepted as standard (ANA 610).'" (My highlighting.) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Rozendal Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 The best reference I have on this subject is a book called "De geschiedenis van Camouflage en kentekens op vliegtuigen van de Nederlandse strijdkrachten" (A history of camouflage and markings on aircraft of the Dutch armed forces) by J. Greuter, M. Schep, L. Boerman and J. Bossong published in 1997. On page 136 of this book it states: Starting february 1st 1954 the agreed colours as specified in STANAG (Standard Agreement) 3089 came into force. According to this agreement the colours for carrier aircraft were: - topsides: Extra Dark Sea Grey - Undersides: Sky or white The Dutch TBM-3W Avengers were deliverd in 1953, before the introduction of this STANAG. They were all delivered in the then standard US Navy colour of overall ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue It was decided to introduce the STANAG colours gradually and use the dutch industry for this during the aircrafts next major overhaul. As 48-Alone-is-great stated above the Dutch navy identified the colours as FS ~6099 for extra dark sea and FS ~4424 for Sky. To make matters more confusing (page 144 of the above book) on some documents the colours are referred to according to the Sikkens Standaard Vliegtuigkleuren (Sikkens Standard Aircraftcolours). As I don't have actual samples of either the Sikkens colours or the British colours I cannot say if the Sikkens colours more closely matches the British colours or the American FS colours, or are maybe an actual third colour that matches neither. Regards, Peter 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 That's interesting, and a surprisingly convoluted way to arrive back at a pair of British colours. I thought we were unique in terms of unnecessary complication! 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48-Alone-Is-Great Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 (edited) All of this does show us that the actual regulators and painters seem to have been less obsessed with absolute exact colour matches as we are. If to them Extra Dark Sea Grey and FS 26099 are one and the same, then to us they should be too, certainly for the planes involved. Edited February 24, 2019 by 48-Alone-Is-Great 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 3 hours ago, 48-Alone-Is-Great said: If to them Extra Dark Sea Grey and FS 26099 are one and the same, then to us they should be too, certainly for the planes involved. That still doesn't tell us which they actually used. If they are different then they will look different when new - and quite possibly more so when faded. However lacking any large number of colour photos, good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Hello twinpin, Be aware, in 1/72 scale I would advice you to NOT go for dark sea grey. Simply does not work for this scale. This scale lend itself better to lighter colors. Besides this, colors are changing the moment the aircraft is leaving the paint shop. These aircraft could not always be stowed below decks, so salt and sun could make great changes. I have studied paint schedules many times by Dutch Naval Aircraft in the West Indies over a seven year period. Put three next to each other and not one is exactly the same in color. I personally am a great fan of Extra color using X007 RAF sky and X003 medium sea grey. I can send you some excellent color drawings from these planes. You can contact me privately and I will send them to you. Regards, Orion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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