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Procopius

Are there any Lancaster VI decals in 1/72?

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I was looking at the very unique looking Lancaster VI, a handful of which were used by the Pathfinders, and I wondered if any decal options for them existed in 1/72. Why? ...No reason.

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None that I know of. 

 

There was an article in Aircraft Illustrated for September 1970 that included a set of Granger drawings. He depicted 635 Sqn's ND673 (F2-V) which had no fancy markings other than Yellow PFF stripes on both sides of the fins, so you could make up a set of markings using kit roundels and various generic lettering decal sheets. Other mods included no spinners and both the nose and mid upper turrets deleted.

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Surely nothing bespoke is actually needed? They only made eight, five saw actual service and not for long at all. It's all just going to be standard kit decals and generic Xtradecal dull red codes and eight inch serials, isn't it? 

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2 hours ago, Admiral Puff said:

Other mods included no spinners and both the nose and mid upper turrets deleted.

The photo was post war, in use the spinners would have been fitted I believe

This one..

EDIT Farnborough post war.   

The codes are unusually small. 

lancm6.jpg&key=01c2abf5a9f920f2da7cd72f4

 

looking at the above thread, and not a tablet, 

note these threads, lots of info

@Procopius  in the above

 

On 27/06/2010 at 04:24, Ed Russell said:

There is a Kits at War decal sheet with F2-V on it.

 

so, yes there is a decal sheet....

 

linked thread are very interesting. Streetley's book Aircraft of 100 Group,  mentions that the Lanc VI wasn't popular as the engines couldn't be synchronised and this was unpleasant for the crew form the noise/vibration aspect.

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The sheet with ND673 F2-V on it is Kits At War K7/15 (it also has transfers for lots of Lancasters with nose art, PD328 Aries and the RAF droop-snoot P-38 "DPA").   The photo Troy posted is the well-known one, showing the aircraft postwar, awaiting disposal.  There is a second, port quarterview of the same aircraft, apparently at the same time, in Mark Postletwaite's Lancaster Squadrons In Focus (p.122): it doesn't add much new except to show that at that time she had white angular underwing serials.

 

If you want an operational Lancaster B.VI the only known photograph of one (according to the author!) is in Clarence Simonsen's RAF and RCAF Nose Art in World War II (Hikoki, 2001) p.99 showing the only B.VI lost on operations, JB713 JQ-P, during brief trials with 405 Sq in early 1944.  (NB Although she was later lost on operations with 635 Sq, she flew no operational sorties as JQ-P.  Is that operational or not?)  Unlike ND673 she has the nose turret - and spinners.  Other details: 4 x 3-blade paddle blade props and REBECCA aerials.   Engines are tarped so no indication of whether exhausts are shrouded or not.   Photo is a starboard quarter view so, if there was any nose art, it's not visible.  From what's visible the markings are absolutely standard with a small P just behind the small square window behind the bomb-aimer's blister.

 

Old school modellers (or masochists) may appreciate Bryan Philpot's Lancaster B.VI conversion in Airfix Magazine Annual 5 using the first Airfix Lancaster kit and Shackleton engines.  If you don't wish to use the Blackbird conversion, engines from the various Lincoln conversions will do: I have some DB versions (but will prob get the Blackbird conversion if I ever get round to starting work on it!).

Edited by Seahawk

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A bit of manipulation in Photoshop reveals the underwing serials in the shot Troy posted.  Not a clear one to begin with and I pretty much ruined the original.  So I saved 'em both in my Lancaster directory, sewing confusion for myself for years to come. 

 

I wonder idly if the lack of spinners was related to the backplate cracking encountered on Lincolns (also Merlin 85s) at about the same time.  Removing their spinners was the temporary fix  and the picture was taken at Farnborough.  Testing?

 

 

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Apart from tailplabe cracking the early Lincolns suffered from flaps and undercarriage creeping down when firted with 3-bladed props, as well as the noise and vibration issues, so usubf one if the Lancaster CIs as a flying laboratory to investigate this makes a,lot of sense.

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7 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Surely nothing bespoke is actually needed? They only made eight, five saw actual service and not for long at all. It's all just going to be standard kit decals and generic Xtradecal dull red codes and eight inch serials, isn't it? 

I mean, sure, and I could whittle it from balsa wood and not waste time on a model, if I wished to do so. 

 

8 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

Not to encourage my esteemed friend into any unplanned expenditure, but Blackbird Models do a Lancaster VI conversion set; doesn't include decals though, as far as I can tell...

Oh, I saw it, and it doesn't, and it calls to me, Stew, it calls. 

 

4 hours ago, Seahawk said:

The sheet with ND673 F2-V on it is Kits At War K7/15 (it also has transfers for lots of Lancasters with nose art, PD328 Aries and the RAF droop-snoot P-38 "DPA").   The photo Troy posted is the well-known one, showing the aircraft postwar, awaiting disposal.  There is a second, port quarterview of the same aircraft, apparently at the same time, in Mark Postletwaite's Lancaster Squadrons In Focus (p.122): it doesn't add much new except to show that at that time she had white angular underwing serials.

Ah, it would be Kits at War, impossible to find anywhere. 

 

7 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

Surely nothing bespoke is actually needed? They only made eight, five saw actual service and not for long at all. It's all just going to be standard kit decals and generic Xtradecal dull red codes and eight inch serials, isn't it? 

I think we both know if the Luftwaffe had flown it, there'd be kits in 1/48 and 1/72, and two or three overpriced hardcover books on the specific mark alone.

 

 

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Hello! New member to the forum here, so please be gentle!

 

I've had an interest in the Lancaster VI for some time, with the DB and Paragon sets in 72 and 48 in the stash, so would like to contribute here.

 

As Troy says above, Streetley's 'Aircraft of 100 Group' summarises the modifications for this mark (with perhaps one omission proposed below). The turret question (were they removed except the rears?) is not yet answered conclusively, but I would favour their removal at some point in service for additional speed (given the ECM and Pathfinding role allocated to these Lancasters, either scattering Window at the front of the bomber stream, or as part of a Spoof raid, or both - either role is more exposed than normal to enemy attack). But that could mean that they had front and mid turrets at first, then removed at squadron level.

 

Which brings us to the omission: I believe that the 635 Sq Lancaster VIs may well have carried Village Inn AGLT rear turrets.  Evidence for this is:

 

'The 1st Squadron to use Village Inn operationally was No.101 Squadron RAF, based at Ludford Magna, in the Autumn of 1944, followed soon afterwards by No.49 (in the attack on Darmstadt on 11/12th, September)  with 156 and 635 Squadrons'. Ref http://www.mcjazz.f2s.com/TailEndCharlie.htm

 

So this could mean that ND673 carried it late war. Alas JB713 F2-Z lost in a raid on Harburg on the night of 18-19 Aug 1944 before AGLT appeared, so no Village Inn there.

 

Other evidence to support this idea exists in photographs of other 635Sq aircraft. Lancaster B.Mk.III, F2-F, (PB979) of No.635 Sq, is photographed with AGLT, and a picture of the collection of POWs dated 11th May 1945 also shows AGLT.  Sorry, being new I'm not sure how to upload these pictures.

 

SD

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7 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Sorry, being new I'm not sure how to upload these pictures.

 

They need to be hosted somewhere online,   Flickr, postimage etc, and then post the URL of the image in your post here.  

see here if that does not make sense

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/15-faqs/

 

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Thanks Troy.

 

Both images are courtesy of the IWM; their IWM reference numbers are BU5903 for F2@F and BU5892 for F2@Z. Posted here for the purposes of discussion only. Both taken on the same day (May 11th 1945) as they were repatriating POWs from Lubeck.

 

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMgIyDCax0dAIefKDk2714v0FTidoJ8XEiCaDki

 

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN-KNx1c4bmHKesIgHzsx5CC5EbxwZJshFsaoLF

 

Both are obviously not Mark VIs, carry a full complement of turrets and H2S. AGLT is visible  on 2 of the rear turrets in these pictures. Indirect evidence I know, so I would cautiously suggest that these photos may indicate that all 635Sq Lancs carried AGLT by war's end.

 

As a teaser, is the Lancaster visible in the far distance in front of F2@F without its dorsal turret? Almost impossible to be sure...

 

SD

Edited by SafetyDad

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Struggling to get Google pictures to link directly. Working at it...

 

Sorry but I can't seem to get the pictures to embed within my posts?

 

 

 

 

Edited by SafetyDad

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12 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

Struggling to get Google pictures to link directly. Working at it...

 

Sorry but I can't seem to get the pictures to embed within my posts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

No worries, easy to find them with that info.

 

BU5903 for F2-F 

 

BU_005903Lancaster635SqnRAF.jpg

 

 

 

BU5892 for F2-Z

Avro_Lancaster_-_L%C3%BCbeck_-_British_A

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Thanks PC for posting these. I still can't get Google pictures to link directly.

 

Coming back to your original question about decals being available for the Lancaster VI, it's interesting to note that of the three 635Sq aircraft photos here in this thread, there are three completely different styles of '2' used within the codes! And, it would seem, little consistency in the style of letter 'F' either...

 

SD

Edited by SafetyDad

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I forgot to mention that Martin Streetley notes the non-standard small codes on F2-V and speculates that, as a Lancaster VI, this airframe may well have had additional window chutes on the lower fuselage sides, where the codes would normally have been painted. Hence the smaller codes.

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2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

I forgot to mention that Martin Streetley notes the non-standard small codes on F2-V and speculates that, as a Lancaster VI, this airframe may well have had additional window chutes on the lower fuselage sides, where the codes would normally have been painted. Hence the smaller codes.

from the other photos it just looks like  635 sq used smaller codes

compare

lancm6.jpg&key=01c2abf5a9f920f2da7cd72f4

compare, and F2-F as well

Avro_Lancaster_-_L%25C3%25BCbeck_-_Briti

 

the roundel is 48 inch, so the codes look about 30", maybe 36", the serial is 8" BTW.

 

might make finding some generic codes easier.

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Note that even though the F in F2-V is well proportioned, it is larger than the other characters. It's on an angle but even the F in F2-Z appears fractionally larger. You need the eye of faith to see it in F2-F but I wouldn't be surprised. Presumably some 635 quirk or an odd assortment of stencils.

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19 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

from the other photos it just looks like  635 sq used smaller codes

compare

 

compare, and F2-F as well

 

the roundel is 48 inch, so the codes look about 30", maybe 36", the serial is 8" BTW.

 

might make finding some generic codes easier.

It certainly does:  48 inch codes in 1/72 scale equate to 32 inch in 1/48.  Plenty of 1/72 48 inch code decals out there.

Finding 32inch codes in 1/72 might be more of a problem, although 36 inch are readily available.

 

Sorted!

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On 2/15/2019 at 5:09 AM, SafetyDad said:

As Troy says above, Streetley's 'Aircraft of 100 Group' summarises the modifications for this mark (with perhaps one omission proposed below). The turret question (were they removed except the rears?) is not yet answered conclusively, but I would favour their removal at some point in service for additional speed (given the ECM and Pathfinding role allocated to these Lancasters, either scattering Window at the front of the bomber stream, or as part of a Spoof raid, or both - either role is more exposed than normal to enemy attack). But that could mean that they had front and mid turrets at first, then removed at squadron level.

Supplementary to this on the turrets, in Air Illustrated for September 1970, Flt Lt G A "Tony" Roome DFC of 635 Squadron, who flew a Lancaster VI operationally, calls it "a Mk III minus the the nose and mid-upper turrets and plus four Merlin 85 engines"; the article also mentions JB675 of 7 Squadron being coded MG-O and flown fifteen times by Wing Commander A J L Craig DSO DFC etc etc between 9 September and 7 October 1944, "all but one as Master Bomber, all but two in daylight."

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Thanks for the additional info PC - its much appreciated. The evidence (such as it is) seems to support the operational removal of turrets, presumably in the interests of additional speed? I'm sure I've read somewhere that front and upper turret removal was known by the RAF to significantly increase the speed of a Lancaster, but wasn't widely undertaken (morale reasons? - I've no idea).

 

I get differing figures for the performance of the Lancaster VI (remembering the engines are also different from the Marks I or III).

These seem to be generally accepted as:

Max speed of Lancaster III was 275 mph @15 000 ft

Max speed of Lancaster VI was 313 mph @18 200 ft

 

One source (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?45789-Avro-Lancaster-B-VI-Info)  suggests 345mph at 30 000 ft!

 

This seems unbelievable, but then there is this:

‘JB713 was flown by your late neighbor (Victoria, BC) W/C Reg Lane DFO, DFC and Bar, C/O - 405 sqdn. PFF, on March 24/25, 44. This a/c and crew were Master Bomber on the last of the Berlin raids...."The night of The Big Winds". The R/G,s log, (F/L Jimmy Scannell DFM, DFC, 89 ops), states: "25 minutes spent over target area". Dr. Theo Boiten has concluded they were intercepted and chased by a JU88 on return leg. The 88 was unable to overtake the MKVI due to it's superior speed.’

The source for this statement is given within the thread as http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,reglane.html. However, following the link, I can't find the source in the page about Reg.

 

Top speed of the Ju88G-1 isn't that easy to pin down definitively, but 356mph @ 27 890 ft seems to be accepted.


So all very vague and rather confusing I'm afraid. This http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3306580 might clarify things (it's the list of mods for the Lancaster VI held at the National Archives at Kew). Not digitised yet. I must get around to requesting a copy...

 

Sorry to go on a bit, this is a special area of interest to me. Any corrections to the information above would be most welcome.

 

SD

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