Jump to content

Sptfire XVIII wing, again


Tomas Enerdal

Recommended Posts

Dear All, (from a newbie)

 

When it comes to Spitfires, I must admit that I've been more interested in Seafires than in Spitfires proper. There is one exception, however; the FR.XVIII (208 sq. in the desert camo from ’49)

 

It is therefore with great anticipation that I look forward to the new Airfix FR.XIVe in 1/48. The sprues look great from pics, the kit has the large rudder as well. See  https://imodeler.com/2018/11/airfix-new-tool-1-48-supermarine-spitfire-fr-mk-xiv-review/

But the fact remains, the kit depicts a FR.XIVe, with an universal “e”-wing, and not a FR.XVIIIe with a strengthened wing.

 

And now the very interesting question arises; what does the strengthened Mk.XVIII wing really look like?

 

I had earlier read that it looks like a “normal” e-wing but with a strengthened structure/spar. Older references, like Spitfire-The History by Morgan/Shacklady doesn’t more than mention the strengthening, the Cooke plans even don’t. Later references like the SAM Modellers Datafile Spit Part 2 Humphreys describes the Mk.XVIII in some detail but draws it with a (Mk.XIV) “e” wing (without blast tubes). The Aero Detail n.30 mentions the strengthened wing and undercarriage but doesn’t draw or describe it further. (Mind you, I don’t have so many more “heavy” Spitfire references than that.)

 

It seems like the Mk.XVIII wing is an almost blind spot on the Spitfire map. Strange, after all these years.

 

I found some hints however. The instructions for the Freightdog Models Brits Abroad Pt.2 contains marking sketches showing a wing without the normal .303 hatches outside the cannon bays, and with an almost square hatch outside it. A picture showing this outside hatch was found in the SAM Datafile on p.101

A small walkaround (TP280) was found through Scalemates.com on http://www.arcair.com/awa01/101-200/awa110-Spitfire/00.shtm

I then finally found some quite remarkable pics here on Britmodeller; https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235014550-spitfire-mkxviii-mk18-photos-of-wing-panelling-differences-confirmed/

 

After that I have searched on the net after more or confirming information. There are at least two flying FR.XVIII still around, SM845/R (light gray w/ red spinner, earlier DFS GZ-J) and TP280/Z (DFS with red/blue spinner, Malaya bands on nose) Lots of pics on the net but not much aid in defining the details of the wing.

 

Having come this far it feels like I know more what a Mk.XVIII wing should look like. But there are still uncertainties;

 

-Confirmation that the wing still has the same dimensions and shape as the universal wing?

-Any differences with regards to the landing gear?

-the paneling and skinning outside the Hispanio gun is still vague, both upper and lower side.

-Is the camera ports under the fuselage of a FR.XVIII the same as on a PR.XIX? Some sources indicate an oval plate/panel around the camera apertures (this panel seems to be lacking on the PR.XIX).

 

IMHO, I believe that now is the time to find out. I suppose there are others with the same idea of making a correct Mk.XVIII. As stated above, the Airfix FR.XIVe seems to be just a great place to start in 1/48.

Any clues/evidence/pics/plans/references out there? Info from the restorations of the Indian ones?

 

Regards,

Tomas Enerdal

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Sir,

Yes, I've seen it, and I'm referring to it in my own post ("I then finally found some quite remarkable pics here on Britmodeller...") But I somehow wanted to summarize what I've learnt and found since then, also wanted to put that (somewhat old) XVIII-wing question in context with the new Airfix kit and bring the matter up again.

Sorry if my post has been put in the wrong place. (Should I have posted it together with all the other Spit questions, in that specific thread?) 

Regards,

Tomas Enerdal

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello, Tomas

I encountered some of the problems you mentioned regarding Spitfire Mk.XVIII, although my acceptance of dogma that Spitfires Mk.XIV and Mk.XVIII have the same wingspan shortened the list. Back to your questions, this thread on Spitfire FR Mk.XVIII cameras here on BM may help:

It provides some answers but, as usually is the case with our hobby, new questions appear. Cheers

Jure

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly my Aeroclub Mk.18 conversion tells me to take the wings from the Academy Spitfire XIV (or any other sutiable later Spit', I was going to use the wings from an ICM HF.VII.

 

John Aero did a lot of original research for this conversion so I'm content that the wing is the same shape.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very true, which is not widely appreciated about the 21-onwards wing - in terms of pure outline it's just a different clip on the same basic shape, and the airfoils and washout are the same as before. Though in that case the completely different ailerons do give it a strong point of visual differentiation lacking from previous production wings

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Dear All,
I have looked at the pics and info I have, this is a synthesis of my conclusions, in plan form.
The pics studied are mainly of the ex-Indian ones, before and after restoration. While studying pics I
have noted that one has be careful with conclusions based on pics after restoration; sometimes
changes has occurred. Examples are removed gun bulges and removed identification lamps from
underside of the wings, toward the tips (48 in the manual diagram). Were other changes introduced
during restoration? I don’t know to what extent these wings were re-skinned during restoration.
Mind you, both SM845 and TP280 were restored to fly.
Another note I made is that the skin of a Spit wing is very smooth. I will probably slightly sand the
surface of the Airfix kit in order to tone down the panel lines somewhat. And I’ll be careful with panel
wash during finishing..
It shall be very interesting to see how the forthcoming Spit part 2 from Valiant Wings will handle this
matter.
For the sake of accuracy, any and all comments welcome!
Finally, I have seen 45 inch stated as the size for the over-wing D-roundels on 208 squadron, desert
camo aircraft. Looking at the one pic that shows this roundel clearly, 48 inch looks closer. Any Ideas?

Regards,

Tomas Enerdal

Spit XVIII wing top

 

Spit XVIII wing under

 

(Yes, these are the earlier C-guns, but I didn't have any 1/48 later, rounded gun plans handy, so I used these, for placement only)

Edited by Tomas Enerdal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

If you look at pics of the wings found in India (link below)

it is very clear that the wingtip lights were retained. when three lights were present they were green, red and amber if I understand it correctly. The lamp under the fuselage (stated to be behind frame 16) was normally amber so I guess green was under right wing, red under left.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

If you look at pics of the wings found in India (link below)

it is very clear that the wingtip lights were retained. when three lights were present they were green, red and amber if I understand it correctly. The lamp under the fuselage (stated to be behind frame 16) was normally amber so I guess green was under right wing, red under left.

Thanks, ref frame 16. Another change to add to the list of my Mk XIV conversion :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tomas and all

 

Also...I can't recall right now where (there are some pictures in the net...have to look for them) some Mk 18 had the 50 cal machine guns removed. They only retained the 20mm cannon

and it seems the machine gun port was framed over (it this correct spelling...?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting! Details about these are not often noted as the .50 mg is inboard of the Hispano and possible plating over is difficult to see. Was the stub tube removed as well? They seem to remain on 208 sq. FR.18 in Palestine/Egypt, IIRC.

General question on E-wings; were stubs covered with doped patches or some other kind of protective covers to protect the guns from sand/dust/moisture?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

General answer: Yes, they were "covered", but I don't know what with. 

 

First I've heard of such a mod on 18s, which doesn't mean it ain't true.  My first thought, though, was that it might be confusion with the stub removal on some Spit IXs (and Vcs).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's pics of Hong Kong based 18's with cannon and .50 cal removed,but with rocket stubs (2 x 3 ) and pylons retained some even with the Seafire 15+ torpedo style Centreline drop tank.

Shane

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/20/2019 at 6:19 PM, Tomas Enerdal said:

Dear All,
I have looked at the pics and info I have, this is a synthesis of my conclusions, in plan form.
The pics studied are mainly of the ex-Indian ones, before and after restoration. While studying pics I
have noted that one has be careful with conclusions based on pics after restoration; sometimes
changes has occurred. Examples are removed gun bulges and removed identification lamps from
underside of the wings, toward the tips (48 in the manual diagram). Were other changes introduced
during restoration? I don’t know to what extent these wings were re-skinned during restoration.
Mind you, both SM845 and TP280 were restored to fly.
Another note I made is that the skin of a Spit wing is very smooth. I will probably slightly sand the
surface of the Airfix kit in order to tone down the panel lines somewhat. And I’ll be careful with panel
wash during finishing..
It shall be very interesting to see how the forthcoming Spit part 2 from Valiant Wings will handle this
matter.
For the sake of accuracy, any and all comments welcome!
Finally, I have seen 45 inch stated as the size for the over-wing D-roundels on 208 squadron, desert
camo aircraft. Looking at the one pic that shows this roundel clearly, 48 inch looks closer. Any Ideas?

Regards,

Tomas Enerdal

Spit XVIII wing top

 

Spit XVIII wing under

 

(Yes, these are the earlier C-guns, but I didn't have any 1/48 later, rounded gun plans handy, so I used these, for placement only)

Look like E-wings to me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Gwart said:

There's pics of Hong Kong based 18's with cannon and .50 cal removed,but with rocket stubs (2 x 3 ) and pylons retained some even with the Seafire 15+ torpedo style Centreline drop tank.

Where please? 

online, book, magazine?  

A quick google hasn't turned up anything in particular. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NPL,

Yes, looks like an "E-wing" to me too.

But again, I'm confused about it!

-Vasco Barbic describes and draws it like this:

"The "E" type wing was the last version of the standard elliptically shaped wing. In fact it was basically the Universal wing without leading edge machine gun ports and, contrary to some assertions, it retained the two outer machine gun bays but their access panels were devoid of blisters and empty shell case ports or deflectors. This wing was specifically produced to carry the "E" armament which consisted of only one Hispano MkII 20mm cannon in the outer cannon bay and a .50 heavy machine gun in thew inboard cannon bay, firing through a blast tube. Like the the Universal wing, it could also carry a bomb and, later, rocket propelled missiles. It was fitted to MkXVI, late production MkIX and, with strengthening of the main spar and structure to the MkXVIII, the last mark to feature the standard elliptical wing."

 

Until recently, this seems to reflect the general view of what an "E"-wing looked like.

 

But this is NOT what the wings in Peter Arnold's pics of the Indian FR.18 look like, see link in post #2 and #12 above. I modified the Peter Cooke drawings to my interpretation of what I could see in pics. They are devoid of access and ammo panels for outer machine guns but instead have an access panel on top of the wing, for desert survival equipment. My drawings are also partially based on what those wings looks like after modern restoration, and according to one source, they were "re-skinned" during that restoration. I'm therefore not sure that my drawings are accurate for an as-built Mk.XVIII.

 

The wings in the Airfix kit has an Universal wing with E-armament, without the blast tubes but with blisters and shell case ports. The Low-back F.XIVe in the Belgian museum has blast tubes but no blisters nor shell case ports, go figure.

 

All this is pure nit-picking, but I am a nit-picker, cannot help myself...

 

Edited by Tomas Enerdal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Not in this pics, no blisters and empty shell case ports or deflectors on the outer MG covers. But it doesn't mean anything, really, they may have been removed in restoration.

https://www.scalenews.de/spitfire-mk-xiv-walkaround-178/

Oops, sorry, I did not see you were speaking about the outer MG.

 

Laurent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

-Vasco Barbic describes and draws it like this:

"The "E" type wing was the last version of the standard elliptically shaped wing. ... It was fitted to MkXVI, late production MkIX and, with strengthening of the main spar and structure to the MkXVIII, the last mark to feature the standard elliptical wing."

This isn't quite right.  The "E" wing (or more properly, the 'e' armament installation in the Spitfire wing) was on late IX/XVI and XIV (not the same structure, that is, not interchangeable between the two groups).  The XIV wing design was then strengthened in order to take the extra weight of a full camera installation and/or additional fuel in the fuselage, and this further developed version was (soon) designated Mk XVIII (or 18).  The 18's wing structure had different skinning, including elimination of the former "outer machine gun bays" and a unique solid-boom spar, instead of the nested square-tube booms of all other Spitfires.

  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...