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Michael M

ORP Krakowiak, IBG, 1:700

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May i watch ? My uncle served on the O.R.P. Kujawiak until she was sunk. He went on to serve in the USN. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle

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Yes, I'm in!

I'll have to keep an eye out for the 1/700 AM stuff for these destroyers.

Can I ask what the plan is for the white bits or are you teasing us?

 

Stuart

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Those bits will just add a bit more of underwater 'depth' to be visible through waves.

Im taking part in a bigger 'Polish Hunts' group build with it, if you want I'll send you some coordinates for Kujawiak build thread, when it starts.

Edited by Michael M

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1 hour ago, Michael M said:

Those bits will just add a bit more of underwater 'depth' to be visible through waves.

I thought that that might be the case. A link 'Polish Hunts' group build would be very useful as I don't normally frequent that area of BM. 

 

Stuart

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9 hours ago, Michael M said:

It's not on BM, it's on one of the Polish forums. If you don't speak the lingo, you can always look at the pictures ;) 

Cheers Michael, you're right, pictures it will be :wink:. I have taken a quick look and it looks very interesting, will be nice to see a good cross-section of builds :yes:.

 

Stuart

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Could someone give me  those nice colour numbers used by RN for this type of camo?

Photo11deBelvoir1NP.JPG

 

I know it's gray and green, but I have to find some paints for it. Actually the number for the green deck would be helpful ...

Edited by Michael M

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That photo is dated May 1945 according to the captions by it on Wiki..

@dickrd do you think this is scheme A? The shape is right but the hull looks quite dark. As with all things B&W film and lense filter related, appearances can be deceiving sometimes.

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On 2/5/2019 at 4:32 PM, Michael M said:

It's not on BM, it's on one of the Polish forums. If you don't speak the lingo, you can always look at the pictures ;) 

 

https://modelwork.pl/topic/35242-projekt-grupowy-polskie - niszczyciele- klasy- hunt-1700/?page=4

Nothing happens when i try the link ? I just get a blank white page ? I wonder if its because i use a cell phone for my internet ? 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle

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Jamie,

 

Although you could argue that CAFO 2269 of October 1944 which introduced the Standard Schemes should have seen the end of all earlier schemes such as those shown in CB 3098R of September 1943, it is absolutely clear from the photo record that quite a number of ships used pre CAFO 2269/44 schemes to the end of the European war and after.

 

I think Belvoir here in this 1945 photo is an example of this. I suggest she is in a CB 3098R/43  emergency scheme, either (b) the equivalent of Light Admiralty type designs which means we should be looking at G45 uppermost and a G20 lower hull, or scheme (d) Equivalent of Dark Admiralty type designs in which case it should have been G20 uppermost and G10 lower hull.

 

Belvoir was operating in the Mediterranean. If they followed the guide given in Chapter 6 of CB 3098R for what scheme to choose they should have gone for the dark type (d). I think this is confirmed by the light tone of the paint of the (top half of) the pendant number. When painting pendant numbers on a darker toned paint (incl G20) a light tone paint was specified (and vice versa on a lighter background paint).

 

This is just a personal hunch, but I don’t think the long Mediterranean-based Hunts used G20 even when it was theoretically available to them as an option. A 50/50 mix of 507C and 507A (= G45 & G10) could be used in place of G20 and my strong suspicion is that this 50/50 mix medium grey is the upper “colour” on Belvoir in this photo.   If so they were effectively just carrying on with the paints specified in the (near-identical) earlier CAFO 1112/42 emergency schemes.

 

So, in a nutshell, a 507A/G10 lower hull and everything above that the 50/50 mix medium grey would be how I would model Belvoir based on the one (slightly washed-out) photo. This late 1943 photo of Adrias in the same theatre probably shows the tones of this scheme better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_destroyer_Adrias_(L67)#/media/File:Greek_destroyer_Adrias.jpg

 

You can advise the NARN paint numbers for the paints….

 

Edited by dickrd

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Strictly speaking that's exactly Krakowiak in June '44 so we're talking about these colours not Belvoir or Adrias, I used Belvoir's photo as an example of that camo, because i couldnt find this one ;)

 

krakowiak_16.jpg

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OK Jamie, I've read the article you have on your website about that 507a/G10,as much i don't like it I have to accept the logic of it, it wasn't greenish. Another question i have for you and dickrd is the colour for the decks. Ive seen some drawings ranging from dark grey to venomous green :) Please Help.

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Well if you are trying to model Krakowiak in June 1944 that presents a problem. As I am sure you know, after spending July 1943 – March 1944 in the Med she returned to the UK in April for service in the Channel working out of Portsmouth. Your photo is said to show her in a fire-support role at Sword Beach on 6th June.

 

So if, as is very likely, she repainted on her return to the UK into a scheme appropriate for service in UK waters this could well have been to scheme (b) which should have been a G20 lower hull and all above that G45. With access to UK paint supplies (albeit there were shortages of green) at what was the lead dockyard for RN paints it could actually have been G20 rather than the 50/50 substitute mix that she painted into. G20 was a greenish grey.

 

Your photo has been censored rubbing out the pendant numbers. Another version of that photo shows light tone pendant numbers highlighted (in an unofficial manner) with dark (black?) edging. Was that black edging done to make the pendant numbers stand out against a light grey (G45) background of scheme (b)?

 

Where did you get the suggestion that she was in a greenish paint from?  Are there any reliable, contemporary Polish reports of her scheme? Are there any better photos?

Edited by dickrd

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No to all your questions, that's the only photo I know about, all the descriptions are enigmatic to say the least. There are some drawings showing her with kind of dark grey with greenish tint to it on the lower part of the hull, but they are just drawings, based on God only knows what. Later photos I've seen show her with whole hull painted in that darker colour, but is it the same greenish one??? Who knows. That's why I'm asking here because whatever it was it must have been following some RN regulations.

 

Something like this for instance:

 

d0e5d070674b769a94bcaa36a9a51b77.png

Edited by Michael M

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This may prove one of those cases whereby a lack of information could make it difficult for anyone to prove you wrong.

 

If painted in a UK dockyard it's unlikely the paint would be something other than what the Admiralty had approved for use.

 

Despite lots of non-primary sources liking to portray British ships in a myriad of greens, the only greenish grey camouflage colour in use (at least after some uncontrolled experimentation quite early in the war) appears to have been M.S.3. and/or G20 depending on timescale. This is best described as a medium-dark tone and greenish rather than green.

 

Some non-primary sources portray B30 as a dark olive but this is categorically wrong, with B30 being neither dark nor olive (it being medium-light and blue-grey).

 

Unless you fancy going off-piste for your model, either the 50/50 grey emergency mix or G20 would appear credible and as I started out - unless some more information shows up it doesn't seem likely that anyone can prove you wrong.

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Decks on destroyers are quite a complicated subject, it seems.

 

By late war, use of linoleum products seems to have been much reduced; it was expensive and flammable, if nicer for the crew in peace time.

 

You are probably aware of the trowel-on latex deck coatings used on destroyers and may believe it was simply called "Semtex", but this is like calling all vacuum cleaners a "Hoover". Semtex was but one of at least 3 brands of the stuff used by the RN and they were different colours. One was grey, one green (but not a dark bottle green) and one was brown. I'm not even sure we can pinpoint which brand was which colour.

 

If that isn't sufficient uncertainty, it seems that this stuff was sometimes painted over in non-slip camouflage paint. In home waters it seems unlikely that the shade used, if painted, would be lighter than G20.

 

That's a long way of saying "I don't know" but if someone does claim to know, you should treat it with suspicion until you are sure of the source of that "knowledge". I'd trust Richard's view on this, but most others including most published authors on these topics are unaware of how much they don't know about the subject.

 

 

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I have been researching Semtex a bit more of late and have now discovered that it could be tinted to any (of the then available) industry colours a customer desired! The three colours Jamie mentioned (although I have them as brown, blue and grey - see page 25 of Mack's book) were as for the I Class delivered pre-war. For the pre-war Tribal's, brown was specified for the whole class regardless of supplier. I now know that by early war the RN was specifying it should be delivered in "Admiralty grey" only.   Having come across the term "Admiralty grey" in a range of contexts in contemporary documents where there is a civilian interface, I believe it was something other than the naval paint 507A and hence was most likely the neutral dark grey No.32 of the BS381C range. It has long been the accepted wisdom, and there is colour photography to support this, that sometime in the later part of the war Semtex came in a green colour. I have not yet found any documentation to tell us when this change came about. 

 

In the absence of any hard evidence I think your options for the decks on Krakowiak in June 1944 are:

 

For the bare steel decks either the very slightly blue-tinged Home Fleet grey (aka 507A) or a dark grey of similar tone (eg BS381C No. 32). Both colours were specified for non-slip deck paint in AFOs.

 

For the Semtex walkways and decks around guns, when new, either a neutral dark grey (eg BS381C No. 32) or a green colour the tone of which is variously reported. In both cases with wear and sunlight they faded so that you  have contemporary descriptions of an asphalt-like grey or a green the colour of newly mown grass. 

 

Semtex was not supposed to be overpainted (although as Jamie says, it seems it sometimes erroneously was) so whatever colour it was delivered in was its basic colour for life on ship until it was replaced/renewed.  The colouring pigment was blended into the wet mix. Given Krakowiak's date of construction, I think that if I were modeling her I would go with a dark grey Semtex  but worn/faded (lightened) to an asphalt colour - unless you can find evidence she had a major refit on return to the UK from the Med in which case it would probably all have been replaced/renewed with fresh green stuff.

 

But as Jamie hints, in the absence of any hard evidence, nobody will be able to prove you wrong whichever way you go.

 

Best wishes! 

 

Richard

Edited by dickrd

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OK so to make sure I'm getting it right, for the steel parts of decks and flat horizontal surfaces I can go for 507A/G10 and for the semtex patches either darker gray without bluish tint or green?

There is a fairly new publication about Polish Hunts, that's Krakowiak prior to  transfer from Mediterranean in April '44. I don't know what is it based on. Looks cool but..... does it make any sense?

 

40075030223_259ff34bde_o.jpg

 

That's basicly box camo for that model, funnily enough IBG's instruction doesn't mention green decks, it says grey......

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