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Tamiya 72nd Scale P47D Razorback


fishplanebeer

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Dear All,

 

Having just bought this kit and read the glowing review from a while back can anyone confirm which version(s) it represents as the P47D had so many.

 

I've just bought the Squadron Signal book on the subject plus perused the internet and now even more confused given that some of the changes between variants were either internal or quite subtle externally. I see that the kit offers a choice of propellers but again I think there were more than two types used at various stages, plus the excellent instructions don't actually say which variant they apply to only the A or B build options.

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

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If you google p47 and the serial number (aircraft you’re modelling - not the kit number that is....) that might turn up the exact “mark”?

Edited by Lawzer
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dalea is correct- both of the decal choices in the 1/72 razorback kit, 42-23224 and 42-76179, were P-47D-15-REs. With the props that come with the kit, a P-47D-10 through P-47D-23 can be built. If you decide not to build  one of the kit choices, then if you can supply the serial number of the one you want to do, one of us can tell you which block number and prop was fitted. Where Jugs are concerned, it is always better if you have a photo of the one you want to model, as different props were frequently fitted by enterprising crew chiefs to increase performance, or after an engine change or overhaul. We had a good discussion  with drawings and photos of the different types of P-47 props a while back- you can look it up- it is an excellent reference!  Here is a basic summary of razorback block numbers/prop originally fitted at the factory as taken from the MBI monograph on the P-47:

P-47D-10-RE 42-74965-75214  Curtiss Electric 'toothpick 4-blade  prop

P-47D-15-RE  42-75615-75864 and 42-76119-78374; P-47D-15-RA 42-23143-23299 shackles and pylons under each wing for fuel tanks or bombs Curtiss Electric 'toothpick' 4-blade prop

P-47D-16-RE 42-75865-76118 same prop as D-15

P-47D-20-RE 42-76365-76614 and 42-25274-25322; P-47D-20RA 43-25254-25440 same prop as P-47D-15 (camouflage deleted beginning with 42-25274 and subsequent)

P-47D-21-RE 42-25323-25538 P-47D-21-RA 43-25441-25664 same prop as the P-47D-20

P-47D-22-RE 42-25539-26388 Hamilton Standard paddle blade prop

P-47D-23-RE 43-25665-25753 and 42-27389-28188 Curtiss Electric paddle blade prop with with either symmetrical or asymmetrical blades 

 

Basically there was a CE narrow chord prop; a HS paddle blade prop; a CE with symmetrical paddle blades; a CE with asymmetrical paddle blades A.O. Smith also supplied paddle blades for  both CE types, but the only way they can be identified, IIRC, is by the one or two narrow yellow stripes below the yellow tips that can be seen in some photos.

 

Hope this will get you started until one of our resident Jug experts logs on! Decisions, decisions!

Mike

 

 

 

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72modeler sums it pretty well, but to be more accurate the kit as it is can only be built as a D-20 to D23 but this is only because they got the engine wrong and modelled it with turtleback mags instead of the correct separate distributors and magneto block. Actually they did also mold the magneto block which is an impossible config! I just remove the turtlebacks  for a D-16 or earlier and just replace them with a couple of bits of plastic rod, as once in the cowling, from the front they look like the correct distributors.

 

If you are not worried about this small detail then you can build more blocks but the kit only contains two propeller types, so if the airframe you are doing has a HS or asymmetrical prop you will have to source these else where.

 

Aircraft earlier than D-15 can be build depending on the particular airframe you are modelling - the cut back cowl flaps came in on the D-15 to aid engine cooling but many earlier aircraft were modified. The pylon mod was also added to earlier blocks, but the kit allows you to build with or without the pylons. The oil cooler outlet deflector plates were added around the D-6 but some earlier aircraft were modified. Early D's had the flat keel, but again some aircraft were modified with the bulged keel. So something like a D-5 can be build easily depending on the mods that airframe had, so good references are need for anything prior to a D-15 ( or some educated guess work ;) ). 

 

Basically pick what airframe you want to model, then go find some pictures ( or ask here for them ) to determine if anything needs to be modified ( most mods are fairly easy ).

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Many thanks to everyone who has responded to my post as up until now the P47 was never an aircraft that I had taken too much interest in and so my knowledge was limited to either 'Razorback' or 'Bubbletop'. However now armed with the excellent Tamiya 'Razorback' I hope to make a reasonably accurate model that correctly reflects the subject, probably a D15 or later.

 

However just a couple of additional questions to further clarify if I may.

 

The kit has 2 versions of the prop, parts A11 & A12 plus the other with parts D1 & D2 so does anyone know which types these are please? Also I've bought the Revell P47M so is this regarded as being a generally accurate kit or should I keep it on the shelf I wonder?

 

Kind Regards

Colin.

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I don’t have a parts map in front of me, but I think those prop parts are for the Curtiss Electric needle prop(the props that come more to a point at the tip and are narrower than the other choice. The other set is the Hamilton Standard prop, wider and more blunt (or rounded) tip with a larger spinner

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It's been a while since I had my Revell P-47M kit out, but IIRC, the lower fuselage is  too deep in profile view from the firewall to the supercharger hood, but can be corrected. The wing guns also follow the dihedral of the wing instead of being horizontal, but the Tamiya kit got this right. Be sure to use a CE paddle blade prop that has symmetrical blades, not the one with asymmetrical blades that comes in the Revell kit, as all M's used the symmetrical bladed prop.  Some M's had the dorsal fin strake, and some didn't, so be sure to find a photo of the one you want to do. 56th Group M's did not generally carry the underwing pylons, as I recall. The cowl flaps on the Revell kit are open, but the gap between each flap is too great. I don't recall offhand if the M's had the compressibility flaps and relocated landing light, but I think they did. M's also had the smooth versus corrugated cockpit floor, and the K-14 gunsight, I believe.    @Chuck1945 can probably tell you more and can correct me, as what I have posted is off the top of my pointed little head.. I was disappointed that Tamiya went ahead and put the parts in their 1/48 D bubbletop kit to do an M, but not in their 1/72 kit, although you can see their 1/72 bubbletop kit is engineered to do a -30 or an M. My favorite M is 'Teddy' BTW!

 

I was planning to use the engine crankcase from the Revell kit on a Tamiya bubbletop engine, making sure to get the correct magnetos on it, fix the cockpit floor, add the compressibility flaps, and relocate the landing light- a lot less work , in my opinion, than correcting all of the flaws in the Revell kit, which actually looks pretty nice built up- until you sit it next to a Tamiya kit! 

Mike

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10 hours ago, Chuck1945 said:

I don’t have a parts map in front of me, but I think those prop parts are for the Curtiss Electric needle prop(the props that come more to a point at the tip and are narrower than the other choice. The other set is the Hamilton Standard prop, wider and more blunt (or rounded) tip with a larger spinner

Tamiya's razor back D has the CE needle prop & the CE symmetrical paddle bladed prop as options, their bubble top -D  has the CE symmetrical paddle blade & the Hamilton Standard prop, the CE symmetrical paddle blade prop is on the wing sprue, the other option on each kit is on the fuselage sprue.

Steve.

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In short. With P-47 the factory outfit should be treated as a basic guidance. Aircraft was easy to modify. Some elements were not so big and distinguished, so modellers often don't care (e.g. never seen a model with right prop governor for CE propeller), other pretty obvious. As a result you could have seen for example a D-2 indistinguishable from late razorback models. And  the 'dash number' for P-47 wasn't changed with even major ''field' modification. That means modeller has to look for the actual outfit of the plane he wants to portrait in the specific moment of time he is interested in. If  he cares to be accurate, that is.

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4 hours ago, greatgonzo said:

In short. With P-47 the factory outfit should be treated as a basic guidance. Aircraft was easy to modify. Some elements were not so big and distinguished, so modellers often don't care (e.g. never seen a model with right prop governor for CE propeller), other pretty obvious. As a result you could have seen for example a D-2 indistinguishable from late razorback models. And  the 'dash number' for P-47 wasn't changed with even major ''field' modification. That means modeller has to look for the actual outfit of the plane he wants to portrait in the specific moment of time he is interested in. If  he cares to be accurate, that is.

 

Well you have now ;)

 

( please click on them if you are using Chrome as the Chrome colour profile is bad )

 

Two of my P-47 builds with their R-2800's.

 

 

40005471303_4c628a2a97_b.jpg

 

33792492560_ca6cd65763_o.jpg

 

 

 

46918100522_212f612f1c_b.jpg

 

33793136760_d637626fff_o.jpg

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10 hours ago, dalea said:

Quickboost,, Starfighter and Pavla make replacemement R-2800s (no doubt amongst others). Are any of them appropriate for the Tamiya D-15? For an early D?

Quickboost has the wrong distributors, I didn't know Starfighter does one and I haven't seen the Pavla "early" R-2800.

 

Most manufactures don't understand the distributor config of the R-2800. Basically if they look like this ( forget it's a B-26's -39, it the right config you are looking for, note the prop governor isn't fitted ) then it's fine for a P-47B to P-47D-16.

 

photo_1_1337771632.jpg

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25 minutes ago, greatgonzo said:

I have now. Well done!

 

On the other hand most modellers omit governor completely, being satisfied with magnetos and distributors ;).

I don't bother with them in 1/72 scale, but anything larger I add something that looks close.

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If I might ask for some clarification of these terms, I don't think I've ever been aware of exactly what was what at the front of the R-2800, so, refering to the above photos, the canister things at 11 & 1 oclock, the black lumpy looking thing at 12 oclock in the museum photo & the smaller grey looking thing at 12 oclock on @Tbolt's superb looking engine. Which of these in partucular is the CE governer? Thanks.

Steve.

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The museum engine has no governor mounted. The root is covered with a plate, as it often happens with exposition engines. Tbolt fitted a small item there imitating the CE governor (the smaller grey looking thing at 12 oclock) with thin bar going back between cylinders - a steering rod going as a system of links back to the cockpit. This steering rod was connected to the governor with the 'lever' opposite to perforated wheel typical for 'hydraulic' governor for HS prop. You will find the same 'hydraulic' governor on R-2800 built in other HS prop driven aircraft, like F4-U.

Edited by greatgonzo
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19 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

If I might ask for some clarification of these terms, I don't think I've ever been aware of exactly what was what at the front of the R-2800, so, refering to the above photos, the canister things at 11 & 1 oclock, the black lumpy looking thing at 12 oclock in the museum photo & the smaller grey looking thing at 12 oclock on @Tbolt's superb looking engine. Which of these in partucular is the CE governer? Thanks.

Steve.

The prop governor is the small grey or black item that sits on the blanked off pad in the picture below. The larger black item in the center is the magneto block and the two item either side of it are the distributors.

 

photo_1_1337771632.jpg

 

This picture below shows the HS prop governor. ( note though that this is not the correct engine for a P-47D as it has the wrong ignition system - like many warbirds it's what they can get ).

 

P-47D-40_R_2800_front.jpg

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Tbolt and the rest of you gents,

 

I was intrigued by the magneto discussion and photos; I just now found this, and I think it's a pretty decent reference for the magnetos and distributors fitted to P-47's from the B to the M variants. I hope this will be useful, especially if you are building a model of an operational airplane- especially because so many restored airplanes are fitted with non-standard R-2800's or props for the variant they are supposed to represent. For a WW2 variant, you would definitely be wise to look at a photo of the one you want to do, especially for the  prop fitted, but I imagine very few photos would show the crankcase to see what type of magneto or even if the engine was a C series powerplant. Link posted for educational and/or information purposes only.

Mike 

 

http://p47.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=127149&page=1

Edited by 72modeler
disclaimer and additional text added
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12 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Tbolt and the rest of you gents,

 

I was intrigued by the magneto discussion and photos; I just now found this, and I think it's a pretty food reference for the mags fitted to P-47's from the B to the M variants. I hope this will be useful, especially if you are building a model of an operational airplane- so many restored airplanes are fitted with non-standard R-2800's or props for the variant they are supposed to represent. For a WW2 variant, you would definitely be wise to look at a photo of the one you want to do, especially for the  prop fitted, but I imagine very few photos would show the crankcase to see what type of magneto or even if the engine was a C series powerplant.

Mike 

 

http://p47.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=127149&page=1

That's the book I have - white's bible, it's where I learnt most of what I know about the R-2800, great book. Not sure about the legalities of copying photos and posting them though....

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Now, for those of you who want to learn how the distributors and magnetos look and  work, as well as how to overhaul, repair, and adjust them- then this site is for you. Find the 'attachment' box and click on the pdf. By the time you scroll through this, you will be able to restore the ignition system on an R-2800 as well as the carburetor! It does make for interesting reading, though, if you're into the technical and engineering details.

Mike

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/bendix-magneto-and-wiring-harness-for-the-p-w-r-2800-engine-manual.38253/

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7 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Now, for those of you who want to learn how the distributors and magnetos look and  work, as well as how to overhaul, repair, and adjust them- then this site is for you. Find the 'attachment' box and click on the pdf. By the time you scroll through this, you will be able to restore the ignition system on an R-2800 as well as the carburetor! It does make for interesting reading, though, if you're into the technical and engineering details.

Mike

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/bendix-magneto-and-wiring-harness-for-the-p-w-r-2800-engine-manual.38253/

Thanks, nott sure I've got that manual, which is surprising as I belong to that forum as I collect manuals. 

 

The MM is quite a nice one to have as well http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/engines/usa/pratt-whitney/r-2800-double-wasp/pn-109466-maintenance-manual-double-wasp-r-2800-ca-engines.html

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I found this listing that shows the various versions of the R-2800 that were produced in WW2 with the major detail differences between them as well as the aircraft in which they were installed. Useful, I think, not just for P-47 modelers, bit for P-61, F4U, F6F,  F8F, and A-26 fans.

Mike

 

https://www.slideshare.net/amineshinobie/pw-r2800-piston-engine

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