Seahawk Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Does anyone know when RAF aircraft in the Mediterranean started adopting the Red spinner as a recognition marking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Strangely, it isn't mentioned in Bowyer's Fighting Colours. I'd say pretty early 1942. You see it on Kittyhawks, which would be late 1941 at the earliest, but not initially on Tomahawks (OK, prove me wrong.) Not on Hurricane Mk.Is but on Mk.IIs. Always on Spitfires (which would be April/May?), 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boman Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Probably a counterweight to the germans having yellow ID markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, Boman said: Probably a counterweight to the germans having yellow ID markings. ? Yellow was Russian front (apart from Balkans campaign) the Med theatre marking was white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boman Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 Lots of yellow in the med too; https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/EAG48131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, Boman said: Lots of yellow in the med too; https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/EAG48131 But not on the spinner, as spinners tended to be in the white recognition colour on German aircraft Different story for the Italians though that in some areas and timeframes used yellow as identification colour on the spinners and sometime even larger areas of the nose. Italian aircraft also used red spinner tips as a squadron identification colour within wings, something that I find quite odd considering how allied fighters had red spinners... guess that the use of this colour on the tips only was not considered a problem in terms of identification when in flight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boman Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 2nd tactical air force also used red noses as identification during the invasion in Europe in 1944. I think the only place red was "banned" was in the far east in order to avoid misidentification with the Japaneese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) I know of no instruction for 2 TAF to use red noses for identification: it seems unlikely and contradicted by the evidence of the photographs - although 122 Sq. seems to have adopted it on their Mustangs at an early stage. The majority were Sky with Mustangs perhaps white and some Typhoons black, until all replaced by black at the turn of the year (the Mustangs having gone elsewhere). I agree about the "banned" in the Far East, but specifying alternate colours can be interpreted as an implicit ban on red - but also every other colour! However this is moving a long way from the winter of 1941/42 in the Western Desert. Edited January 31, 2019 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'm reassured that there apparently isn't a clear answer to the question and pleased to have a clear answer to my immediate requirement to know whether my Western Desert Hurricane I should have one. Thanks everyone for contributing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnAndersen Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 when speaking of these red spinners, I'd like to know if it was roundel red that were used. TIA Finn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 I would think so. Apart from No 43 Sqn. which used Post Office Red for spinners and codes on its Spitfires Mk.VIII and IX, of course. Cheers Jure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Seahawk said: I'm reassured that there apparently isn't a clear answer to the question and pleased to have a clear answer to my immediate requirement to know whether my Western Desert Hurricane I should have one. Thanks everyone for contributing. Well, that we can't find one doesn't mean someone else couldn't, but without some idea of ME's equivalent of AMOs... Job for Paul Lucas, perhaps? Just which Hurricane are you thinking of doing? If it is early enough it wouldn't have red, but later on it might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 31, 2019 Author Share Posted January 31, 2019 Z4370 J of 806 Sq. To ME 31/7/41. 806 Sq 8/41. Retd RAF and to Far East 12/3/42. I'm working from a photo but the nose is cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloegin57 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 On 1/30/2019 at 6:34 PM, Graham Boak said: Strangely, it isn't mentioned in Bowyer's Fighting Colours. I'd say pretty early 1942. You see it on Kittyhawks, which would be late 1941 at the earliest, but not initially on Tomahawks (OK, prove me wrong.) Not on Hurricane Mk.Is but on Mk.IIs. Always on Spitfires (which would be April/May?), I agree with Graham, it is rather odd that Bowyer has not mentioned such a distinctive marking. May I suggest that the application of Red spinners occurred during the period between the 14.10.41, when the build up to "Operation Crusader" began and the 18.11.41 when the Operation was launched. By the end of 1941, the Commonwealth Air Forces were numerically and technically on a par with Rommel's Air Forces and thus able to hold them at bay whilst the 8th Army moved forward. Although I can find no historical reference to it, it would appear logical to me for the Commonwealth Air Forces to adopt a distinctive marking as a recognition aid during the aerial fighting that was to come. Spitfire V's are first reported to have arrived in the area in March 1942, 145Sqdn working up with them. It appears that the Unit did not commence Operations until June 1942 The oft named "Desert Air Force" (DAF) was so named during a re-organisation of Middle East Air Forces in February 1943. It had previously been called the "Western Desert Air Force" (WDAF). Commanded by AVM Harry Broadhurst, it relinquished its Medium and Light Bomber assets which were transferred to a newly formed Tactical Bomber Force. Much of the information above has been extracted from "Desert Air Force at War" by Chaz Bowyer and Christopher Shores printed and published by Ian Allen Ltd, London 1980 HTH Dennis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 Looking in vol 1 of Shores etc Med. Air War, November 1941 looks about right. Photos include Hurricane I and Tomahawk with what looks very much like red spinners. So an 806 Sq Hurricane in August will probably have a black spinner, but be repainted by the end of the year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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