The best Destroyer/Frigate helicopter in history

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

43 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Jolly good to see you back at work Crisp.

Not to worry. When the weather's warmer you'll be able to get a bit of painting done out on Hampstead Heath:

Any resemblance between me and Edward Fox / The Jackal is entirely coincidental or due to the viewer’s sight problems.

[Brandy]

Welcome back Crisp!

I'll take a seat at the bar since this is likely to be a long haul and refreshment will undoubtedly be required. I'll send you one over to keep the plastic dust from the throat!

 

Ian

[Britman]

Really enjoying this,first hand recollections and some excellent modeling too! Can you tell l us how the Wildcat measures up to the Lynx ? I imagine it might be a different kettle of fish for the pilot. 

 

Keith 

[brianthemodeller]

I think I’ll sit at the back quietly with the rest of the riff raff!

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, Britman said:

Really enjoying this,first hand recollections and some excellent modeling too! Can you tell l us how the Wildcat measures up to the Lynx ? I imagine it might be a different kettle of fish for the pilot. 

 

Keith 

I’d love to, but I left the RN in 1997, when the word “Wildcat” only meant a tubby, pugnacious Grumman WW2 Naval fighter!  Having talked to a few ex-Lynx Wildcat drivers (the people I remember as students and sprogs who are now mega-experienced SPLOTs and COs), the handling is not hugely different.  Much more powerful engines, but also a heavier airframe, so no startling uplift in performance - but it didn’t need one; the Lynx wasn’t obsolete in pure flying machine terms - 150 kts is plenty for a maritime helicopter, and its handling on and around a deck was always fantastic.  

 

However, in sensors and tactical capability the Lynx had passed its sell-by date (and I imagine some of the airframes were getting a bit tired after 35 years or so).  The Wildcat is a massive leap forward in those terms; I talked to a Looker chum who has converted to Wildcat, and he told me how he could now set up and run an accurate surface plot for the whole Western English Channel and Bristol Channel when flying over Somerset, which would have taken hours and a lot of flying in a Lynx.  The Wildcat will be even more of a step up when they finally get the Skua replacement.

 

Translation for passing Italians (TPI):

 

1.  “sprog” = junior and inexperienced member of a ship’s company or squadron;

2. ‘SPLOT” = Senior Pilot, usually the second-in-command of a Naval Air Squadron - especially if the CO is an Observer (the Fleet Air Arm has always been less obsessed with pilots being the Master Race than the Crabs: Observers regularly act as captain of the aircraft and command squadrons);

3. “Looker” = Observer, the one in the left-hand seat of a Lynx who navigates and fights the aircraft, as opposed to the trained monkey who merely waggles the sticks about from the right-hand seat.  The Air Force call Observers “Navigators” nowadays, though they used the O word in the past.

4. Crab = RAF.  Strictly, the full term is “Crab-fat”; this was the nickname of an ointment used between the wars to treat crab lice, an unpleasant genital affliction.  The ointment was air force blue.  Crabs themselves sometime try to claim that the nickname - used throughout the Navy and Army - is something to do with the shape of their cap badge.  This is crap.

5. Crap = rubbish.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Terry1954]

4 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

it would have either have been RN (Oxford Blue, with wheels) or Army Air Corps (skids and camouflage) in those days.

Yes indeed. Many years ago (in a former life) we lived in Over Wallop, right next Middle Wallop, and with Nether, the collective (no pun intended) name being "the Wallops". We had regular sights of Gazelle and Lynx which would often put down in the field behind our house. My sons, went to the local primary school which was adjacent to and slightly off the centre line of one of the grass runways. The headmaster at the time had excellent relationships with the local AAC folk, and during the summer fairs it was always guaranteed a Lynx and a Gazelle would literally drop into the school grass field, close down and then "open up" for the young ones to take a good look inside. This overgrown school child had some delightful moments inside the Lynx talking with the crew! Health and safety then was at a sensible level - the base liaison people would drive around in the morning, and two AAC types would heard the youngsters to a safe distance while they landed and took off - no barriers, all good healthy learning for potential future AAC aviators and the like. In later years the Apache's came. What beasts they were ............. but I digress.

 

Apologies for the thread drift Crisp, it just brought back some memories!

 

Terry

[giemme]

15 minutes ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Translation for passing Italians (TPI):

 

1.  “sprog” = junior and inexperienced member of a ship’s company or squadron;

2. ‘SPLOT” = Senior Pilot, usually the second-in-command of a Naval Air Squadron - especially if the CO is an Observer (the Fleet Air Arm has always been less obsessed with pilots being the Master Race than the Crabs: Observers regularly act as captain of the aircraft and command squadrons);

3. “Looker” = Observer, the one in the left-hand seat of a Lynx who navigates and fights the aircraft, as opposed to the trained monkey who merely waggles the sticks about from the right-hand seat.  The Air Force call Observers “Navigators” nowadays, though they used the O word in the past.

4. Crab = RAF.  Strictly, the full term is “Crab-fat”; this was the nickname of an ointment used between the wars to treat crab lice, an unpleasant genital affliction.  The ointment was air force blue.  Crabs themselves sometime try to claim that the nickname - used throughout the Navy and Army - is something to do with the shape of their cap badge.  This is crap.

5. Crap = rubbish.

That is very much appreciated, 'cos I was already starting to feel at lost ...     Anyway, I already knew the word "crap" ...  

 

Ciao

[NAVY870]

5 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Her Majesty’s Crustacea 

I'm nicking that!

[Max Headroom]

Quick off-topic question if I may, before the modelling moves into full throttle?

 

Why does the “trained monkey” (your words, not mine!) sit in the starboard seat on a helicopter, but in the port side on fixed wing types? Always been curious about that 🤔

 

Trevor

[pinky coffeeboat]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

 

Translation for passing Italians (TPI):

 

1.  “sprog” = junior and inexperienced member of a ship’s company or squadron;

2. ‘SPLOT” = Senior Pilot, usually the second-in-command of a Naval Air Squadron - especially if the CO is an Observer (the Fleet Air Arm has always been less obsessed with pilots being the Master Race than the Crabs: Observers regularly act as captain of the aircraft and command squadrons);

3. “Looker” = Observer, the one in the left-hand seat of a Lynx who navigates and fights the aircraft, as opposed to the trained monkey who merely waggles the sticks about from the right-hand seat.  The Air Force call Observers “Navigators” nowadays, though they used the O word in the past.

4. Crab = RAF.  Strictly, the full term is “Crab-fat”; this was the nickname of an ointment used between the wars to treat crab lice, an unpleasant genital affliction.  The ointment was air force blue.  Crabs themselves sometime try to claim that the nickname - used throughout the Navy and Army - is something to do with the shape of their cap badge.  This is crap.

5. Crap = rubbish.

In all my 20+ years of service in the Navy, entirely in the FAA, I've never heard anyone refer to observers as lookers - not even the female ones!! Plenty of alternative terms for them, most not printable; perhaps like all things, it's a tradition from a different era that is being forgotten.

 

As for the crabs - again plenty of alternative terms of endearment for our very junior relatives but none printable.

 

Jeff

Edited January 30, 2019 by pinky coffeeboat

[Britman]

Thank you EX FAA, much as I would have expected.  Handy to know that one Wildcat could keep an eye on the Dover straights for aliens. By the way , and not to diminish the efforts of the other services, but working on the stern of a ship in all weather's seems heroic to me!

 

Keith 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Britman

[Britman]

The RNAS where very active in my location  (Westgate and Manston ) during the first world war. 

 

Keith 

[Grey Beema]

My father was ex FAA - He told me that when he was in training a (what I know now must have been Sikorsky Hoverfly) helicopter was flown through the hanger in which he was servicing a Seafire....  

 

Hoverfly in through the front door, everyone else out through the back door.....

 

BTW mind if a take a place at the bar Crisp?

[Harley John]

6 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Her Majesty’s Crustacea never operated the Lynx; it would have either have been RN (Oxford Blue, with wheels) or Army Air Corps (skids and camouflage) in those days.

I woke up this morning to that very thought! Proving that one should be very careful what one commits to the interweb after a glass or two of the Sauvignon Blanc!

I do apologise 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

Quick off-topic question if I may, before the modelling moves into full throttle?

 

Why does the “trained monkey” (your words, not mine!) sit in the starboard seat on a helicopter, but in the port side on fixed wing types? Always been curious about that 🤔

 

Trevor

Because the normal way you land a helicopter on a warship is from port, so being in the RH seat gives you the best view on approach.  There are exceptions - for instance, on a carrier rotary-wing often use the starboard spots behind the island, thus leaving the runway clear for the Stovies [TPI: jets; originally something to do with “stove-pipes”, I think].  In a 2-pilot aircraft like a Seaking, if you’re landing from starboard (onto one of those spots behind the island) the pilot in the left-hand seat will fly the landing.  In a Lynx you don’t have that option, obviously.

 

The ship will try (all other things being equal) to give you the optimum combination of relative wind and deck movement for the landing.  Of course the ship is often constrained by navigational or tactical factors, so can’t give you the best relative wind, but each class of ship has a SHOL (ship helicopter operating limit) which sets the limits for relative winds at various aircraft weights (the heavier you are, the smaller the SHOL “envelope” of acceptable relative winds is).  This is established by test pilots in the trials phase of a new class of ship; one of the things that Queen Elizabeth will have been doing off the Eastern USA at the end of 2018 is coming up with the day and night SHOLs for F35.  The SHOL looks like a spider diagram, and the OOW (TPI: officer of the watch - the bloke driving the ship) will steer the ship onto a “flying course” to give a relative wind which is inside - preferably well inside, but not always - the SHOL for your weight.  I had the Type 22 day and night SHOLs (the night one is smaller) on my left knee pad every time I went flying from Broadsword.

 

What do I mean by relative wind?  The true wind is what you sense wherever you are: “the wind is from the North at 10 knots today”.  But if the ship on which you are trying to land is steaming due South at 10 knots on that day, the relative wind is nil, because the ship’s movement cancels out the wind.  On most days the true wind and the ship’s course/speed combine to give a relative wind: the wind that you sense as you hover over the deck (or stand on it, for that matter).  

 

Sometimes you have no choice but to land from starboard - a ‘cross-cockpit’ landing.  It’s safe enough provided you are in good current practice, but fairly obviously you can’t see anything like as much. 

 

Some other time I’ll explain things like translational lift, which is the main aerodynamic factor that makes the relative wind so important.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[corsaircorp]

4 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Welcome back Crisp!

I'll take a seat at the bar since this is likely to be a long haul and refreshment will undoubtedly be required. I'll send you one over to keep the plastic dust from the throat!

 

Ian

Ho Ian,

What a good guy you are !!

 

Hey Crisp,

Now I have a bigger envy to start a thread with flying pianos too !

My Sikorsky is stalled since I wait for a good tradewind to bring me the 1/48 Dragonfly.

Well, I'll find Something else...

Obviously, a sailor's helo !! Mmmmmh

Lightbulb switched on !!

I get to the attic !!

Sincerely.

CC

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, pinky coffeeboat said:

In all my 20+ years of service in the Navy, entirely in the FAA, I've never heard anyone refer to observers as lookers - not even the female ones!! Plenty of alternative terms for them, most not printable; perhaps like all things, it's a tradition from a different era that is being forgotten.

Looker was a term in common use in my era (1978 - 1997) - and that of my Dad (1943-46), who was himself a Looker.  I’m slightly sad if it has passed out of use.  Yes, there are lots of other terms, depending on how rude you want to be.  “JAFO” was popular in the early-80s, because of (?) the Airwolf film (“just another f’ing Observer”)... but that was dying out even when I left.  

 

[Incidentally, I’m pleased to see that the term “Pinky” is still in use!]

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[hendie]

3 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

thus leaving the runway clear for the Stovies

 

not to be confused with the stovies from further up north - which are much tastier !

 

 

MMMmmmmmnnnnnn num num num.... stovies!

[davepb]

I always heard them referred to as "Commissioned Ballast"!

 

[pinky coffeeboat]

3 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Looker was a term in common use in my era (1978 - 1997) - and that of my Dad (1943-46), who was himself a Looker.  I’m slightly sad if it has passed out of use.  Yes, there are lots of other terms, depending on how rude you want to be.  “JAFO” was popular in the early-80s, because of (?) the Airwolf film (“just another f’ing Observer”)... but that was dying out even when I left.  

 

[Incidentally, I’m pleased to see that the term “Pinky” is still in use!]

Sadly "pinkies" have gone, we're Av now (or "gay-vee" as the grubbers like to grunt) but our revered nickname is still remembered by the more "experienced " crowd.

 

Jeff

[giemme]

Passing Italian here ... an explanation about "pinkies" is needed... please?

 

Ciao

[Terry1954]

5 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

Some other time I’ll explain things like translational lift, which is the main aerodynamic factor that makes the relative wind so important.

More fascinating stuff Crisp, thank you. I'll definitely look forward to understanding translational lift. I once had a lecture from an RAF pilot on the challenges (and indeed dangers) relating to wind speed limits for Chipmunk flying (to do with propeller stalling as I recall but it was way back) and I found the whole thing fascinating. Closest I got to having to rely on this sort of knowledge was during my PPL training at Old Sarum, and cross wind flying limits. Very basic stuff compared to your experiences I am certain!

 

Terry

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Terry1954

[Nocoolname]

3 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

More fascinating stuff Crisp, thank you. I'll definitely look forward to understanding transitional lift. I once had a lecture from an RAF pilot on the challenges (and indeed dangers) relating to wind speed limits for Chipmunk flying (to do with propeller stalling as I recall but it was way back) and I found the whole thing fascinating. Closest I got to having to rely on this sort of knowledge was during my PPL training at Old Sarum, and cross wind flying limits. Very basic stuff compared to your experiences I am certain!

 

Terry

 

 

I had an RAF pilot explain the limitations of a Chipmunk to me in person, with he in the front and me in the back. "Do you see what happens now? Do you see?"... "No, I can't see much at all now that my eyeballs are at my feet surrounded by my stomach. But thanks for asking."

[pinky coffeeboat]

58 minutes ago, giemme said:

Passing Italian here ... an explanation about "pinkies" is needed... please?

 

Ciao

In the RN FAA (and less so in the general service fish heads (ie those who work on ships)), the various aircraft engineering trades are referred to by nick names;-

 

Mechanical (engines, airframes, oily things) - "grubbers"

Electrical (power generation, AFCS, aircraft systems sensors etc..) - "greenies"

Radio (radar, comms, sonar, nav, - mission specific stuff) - "pinkies" and also the superior trade....

Weapon Electrical (ummm...weapons) - "bomb heads"

 

Bomb heads went years ago, merged into greenies.

 

I have been told that the coloured names came from the decor used in the training school from years ago (green and pink) but nobody has ever confirmed that.

As the aircraft have evolved, there has been a huge cross over between greeny and pinky system and so the trades have merged to become Av - avionics.

The RAF have something similar (sooties, faireys, and others) but they have a larger number of trades.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Jeff

[AdrianMF]

Looking forward to a large plate of modelling goodness with a side order of helicopter aerodynamics!

 

Regards,

Adrian