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Soft edge camo issue Pz IV - iwata neo


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Currently attempting soft edge camo with the Iwata Neo on 1/35 Panzer IV. 

 

The issue is overspray to adjacent colour. Do not seem to be able to have fine enough spray pattern, where the two colours overlap, to look scale correct.  Have tried several different pressures, mix ratios, proximity to subject; becoming a little disheartened and frustrated. Paint is Tamiya Acrylic thinned with Tamiya Acrylic thinner.

 

Attempting this freehand in hopes of realistic appearance, no masks used.

 

Have read many posts regarding air pressure, paint thinning, proximity of nozzle to work surface,the brush itself and thinning mediums. Some people say 1 mm line is achievable, which should be fine, others say no, use a better brush.

 

Should I be able to obtain a fine enough line to look scale correct with this air brush and .35 needle? Do I need more practice, better mix, better brush, different thinning medium?

 

Much appreciate input and advice on this issue.

 

Currently have a bush fix going, carefully dry brushing the worst overspray, a slow and tedious job.

 

All the best,

 

Robert

 

 

 

 

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On 1/28/2019 at 5:58 AM, Ceithearn said:

Currently attempting soft edge camo with the Iwata Neo on 1/35 Panzer IV. 

 

The issue is overspray to adjacent colour. Do not seem to be able to have fine enough spray pattern, where the two colours overlap, to look scale correct.  Have tried several different pressures, mix ratios, proximity to subject; becoming a little disheartened and frustrated. Paint is Tamiya Acrylic thinned with Tamiya Acrylic thinner.

 

Attempting this freehand in hopes of realistic appearance, no masks used.

 

Have read many posts regarding air pressure, paint thinning, proximity of nozzle to work surface,the brush itself and thinning mediums. Some people say 1 mm line is achievable, which should be fine, others say no, use a better brush.

 

Should I be able to obtain a fine enough line to look scale correct with this air brush and .35 needle? Do I need more practice, better mix, better brush, different thinning medium?

 

Much appreciate input and advice on this issue.

 

Currently have a bush fix going, carefully dry brushing the worst overspray, a slow and tedious job.

 

All the best,

 

Robert

There are at least three factors to consider:

 

Thinned paint: airbrushes are designed for retouchers and artists who use ink with microfine pigments. Thinning the stuff we use doesn't necessarily work as the pigment can be too coarse. I know paints like Mr Paint (already thinned) and Mr Color (thinned at 50/50) work. Acrylics can work for some, I have tried Tamiya & Mr hobby but sprayed with Mr Leveling thinner with mixed results, paint dries virtually instantly on the tip and pigments can vary from superfine to sand. Some folk say Mission Paints are the way forward , mind you some say Jesus is a trans-woman living in Connecticut selling bagels, so treat every anecdote with suspicion unless they back it up with evidence (or bagels).

 

Air pressure:  Yes, you need very low air pressure to achieve what you're trying to do, in my case I set it at the lowest I can and still spray (this means the regulator is barely off the 0 PSI mark in my case), a tank on the compressor will help no end

 

Airbrush: There's a whole load of voodoo re needle/nozzle sizes, progressive tapers etc on the web and various forums to read if you feel like it . Then the airbrush itself: In my case I tried a badger Sotar 20/20F, and Iwata custom Micron and the lovely Mr Hobby Airbrush custom and bought the Badger as I found it let me do the stuff below and only cost £120. The Custom Micron and Mr Airbrush  are lot dearer and although the Iwata was easily the best, it cost £400+ and is very fiddly to clean with a tiny nozzle that will easily disappear and cost megabucks to replace.  For the record, I own two H&S infinity (0.2mm/0.4mm), an H&S Evolution 0.6mm (primers/varnishes) and an Iwata HP-TH ( it was cheap when I was in Tokyo many moons ago and is a brilliant primer/varnish brush that can spray a flat pattern like a spray gun). I have tried putting a 0.15mm nozzle/needle in my H&S Infinity and it doesn't even come close to the Sotar in controllability or fineness of line.

 

Some favour the Grex for fine detail, other will rant about Olympos  (who allegedly are made by the same factory that supplies Iwata, check out the posts of @Robbyrockett who seems to be a man in the know). The Badger is functional in its design and finish, no Swiss watch engineering and lustrous chrome, but it can spray sub millimetre lines and dots using modelling paint and is a doddle to clean. This is what mine has done in the last few months and the builds are on BM as proof, They are all 1/72 . All using Mr Paint/Mr Color.

 

1mm lines

sotar%2520lines.jpg&key=4ce17d880a16d9da

Freehand camo

camo.jpg&key=ed3289d01e17b8b9bf93a710caf

 

1-2 mm mottling

mottle1.jpg&key=b72b349b57f2db11492e42fc

 

 

Despite this, I have a ramekin filled with lacquer/cellulose thinner I dip my airbrush nozzle in every few minutes as I still get some paint build up.  Tuning your airbrush will help no end (BTW a lot of manufacturers are beginning to release "tall triggers" )

 

 

Lastly practise:  I paint a model virtually every week in a dedicated spraying room, accurate freehand airbrushing is a skill you will need to master  and only practice and perseverance will help once you you've got the tools sorted, there's no instant gratification in mastering airbrushing any more than any other skill. I know folks with Iwata custom microns who can barely spray even a simple flat panel of colour and keep buying more airbrushes and paints in the vain hope that these are a substitute for skill and practice.

 

 In my case its made painting my favourite part of the hobby, I  even do retouches of minor overspray/blemishes free hand, even after decalling in a matter of minutes.

 

Good luck and have fun

 

Anil

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The short answer is yes, it should be easily achievable, that said and as very well explained by azureglo they're factors that need to be taken into account.

 

Personally I've had great results using Tamiya paint thinned with their X20a thinner.  I use not quite sure what the ratio is that I use, all I do is with a new jar is add X20a until it's about 5mm below the lip of the jar, shake/mix, spray.  :yes:  I don't get needle drying issues and can with a 0.4 needle spray 1mm lines no problem.

 

But I've been using the airbrush for a few years, a great deal of airbrush "not being able to achieve" is nothing more than experience or as the man who trained me during my apprenticeship used to say "time on the tools son, time on the tools" never was there a more true statement.  

 

Just keep practising, it could be something that just falls your way or it could take some time, relax keep at it, it will come.      

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Don't know the nozzle opening, but this is what I did with a 0.3mm needle on

a 1/48 Ta-152:

d5621ec8ac08ccee453db5b54d253aad.jpg

 

and on a 1/72 S-125 launcher:

76e6b10eb7c0319129cc6d710d93e0a5.jpg

I usually work with tamiya/gunze for this and isopropylalcohol or Tamiya Lacquer thinner (keeps the paint more wet then alcohol). Then I remove the protective cap from my AB, and lower the pressure to 0.6-0.7bar. The cap is removed because I've found it to have more overspray when spraying from a few mm's from the model (I suppose air with paint turning around in the nozzle cap) and to be able to spray as close as possible. Also try to paint the AB to the inside of the color you are spraying, the paint makes a cone, and like this you can avoid "reflecting" the paint back, hence the lower pressure and spray as close to the model as possible, without touching it with the needle, so you use the smallest diameter of the cone... 

 

When I want to do this, I have a bottle with me (not for liquid courage) but to practice the mixture, and getting the feel of the movement in my hands, before turning to the model...

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Anil, Kev and Silenoz, very much appreciate the replies and in depth answers to my query. The positive and informative input/feedback is one of the reasons why I enjoy Britmodeller so much.

 

Three years ago re-entered the hobby after being off for many, many years. Now being able to afford equipment and products has really upped the enjoyment factor. Went backed and looked at the 1/35 Panther that was first painted with the Neo. Not as much overspray, although, the camo pattern wasn't as tight. The Bf 109 also didn't seem to have the issue while applying camo. Thinking older acrylic paint, air pressure may be the main culprits, combined with the tighter freehand camo pattern lead to the frustration. The Neo has been used quite a bit over the past three years but can't imagine the needle has worn. Most of the other paint jobs have been one colour sprays.

 

Many good "take aways" from your input. Do have an air tank acquired at the local sway meet which could be put into use. Also the idea of having a higher quality air brush with proven track record is appealing.

 

Will keep at it, the building time is almost like meditation, just the odd frustration like this last camo job. Finished several nice kits last year, 2019 the Panzer Ausf J is pretty well done already. Santa via son has brought a Mig,21, that will be different. After that, thinking another 109 or perhaps that nice Typhoon kit.

 

Again, thank you all very much for your help and input.

 

All the best,

 

Robert

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/30/2019 at 12:10 PM, azureglo said:

Then the airbrush itself: In my case I tried a badger Sotar 20/20F, and Iwata custom Micron and the lovely Mr Hobby Airbrush custom and bought the Badger as I found it let me do the stuff below and only cost £120 .

Was it this one?

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/home/1069-sotar-20-20-new-2018.html

 

I'm having similar problems to the OP with both my airbrushes, although a lack of experience is a contributing factor!

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8 hours ago, Gav G said:

Was it this one?

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/home/1069-sotar-20-20-new-2018.html

 

I'm having similar problems to the OP with both my airbrushes, although a lack of experience is a contributing factor!

Yup, from the man Steve Barwell hisself ( original importer of Stylnylzres). Make sure if you get it that its has the regular Iwata/regular style hose adapter thats its supposed to come with, Badger use some weird proprietary fitting  for their own hoses. Main difference with this version from my older one is that the whole nozzle head assembly is sealed saving you a tiresome hour sealing everything with PTFE tape. While you're there get one of these:

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/badger-150/799-trigger-high-roller.html

 

Makes the whole thing even more controllable, plus google videos on the Regdab, lovely stuff compare to the blue Iwata glop

 

 

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9 hours ago, azureglo said:

Yup, from the man Steve Barwell hisself ( original importer of Stylnylzres). Make sure if you get it that its has the regular Iwata/regular style hose adapter thats its supposed to come with, Badger use some weird proprietary fitting  for their own hoses. Main difference with this version from my older one is that the whole nozzle head assembly is sealed saving you a tiresome hour sealing everything with PTFE tape. While you're there get one of these:

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/badger-150/799-trigger-high-roller.html

 

Makes the whole thing even more controllable, plus google videos on the Regdab, lovely stuff compare to the blue Iwata glop

 

 

Thanks. Really tempted with that, £124 including next day delivery, a spare needle and a bottle of Regdab seems to be a bit of a bargain! It also says it includes an Iwata adaptor.

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2 minutes ago, Gav G said:

Thanks. Really tempted with that, £124 including next day delivery, a spare needle and a bottle of Regdab seems to be a bit of a bargain! It also says it includes an Iwata adaptor.

One of my best purchases  and I have a few brushes...

 

33220099268_acca263ac5_b.jpg&key=dfc8ecf

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5 hours ago, azureglo said:

One of my best purchases  and I have a few brushes...

 

33220099268_acca263ac5_b.jpg&key=dfc8ecf

Having seen other good comments about this brush a while ago and on top of your positive comments, I was just able to order when... I found they had this also; the exact model you have (I think) plus the medium conversion kit all for £140 delivered. Confused!

 

It's definitely worth the extra £16 but am I just upselling myself for the sake of it!?!

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/airbrushes/1043-sotar-20-20-fine-with-20-144-medium-conversersion-kit.html

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10 minutes ago, Gav G said:

Having seen other good comments about this brush a while ago and on top of your positive comments, I was just able to order when... I found they had this also; the exact model you have (I think) plus the medium conversion kit all for £140 delivered. Confused!

 

It's definitely worth the extra £16 but am I just upselling myself for the sake of it!?!

 

https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/gb/airbrushes/1043-sotar-20-20-fine-with-20-144-medium-conversersion-kit.html

The medium conversion makes it more versatile: Basically its the same as the H&S 2 in1- a bigger nozzle/needle for wide areas ( I think its 0.4-0.5mm). If you don't a have a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th & 5hth!) its a good deal as it'll let you spray fine detail and wide spreads  from the same brush with some adjustments and needle/nozzle changes- more bang for yer buck as they say in Bognor Regis...

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