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Lican

Battle of Britain in photos albums

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N252x: Hurricanes serving with 17 Squadron:

  • (N2525  17  Missing, presumed shot down by Bf 109s near Cambrai, 19/5/40.)
  • N2526 17/5 OTU/245/55 OTU/ ME.  SOC 27/4/44.
  • (N2528 17  Missing, presumed shot down by Bf 109s near Mailly, 26/5/40.)
  • N2529 17/111/3 FPP/6 OTU/56 OTU/ME.  Crashed 21/3/41: no further data.

P303x: only candidate given is P3033 (17/260/607/55 OTU/56 OTU/2 TEU.  SOC 23/6/44.)

 

P3482 YB-W served only with 17 Sq.  Engine caught fire and crashed in wood near Elsenham, Essex, 15/7/40: destroyed by fire.

 

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11 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

N252x: Hurricanes serving with 17 Squadron:

  • (N2525  17  Missing, presumed shot down by Bf 109s near Cambrai, 19/5/40.)
  • N2526 17/5 OTU/245/55 OTU/ ME.  SOC 27/4/44.
  • (N2528 17  Missing, presumed shot down by Bf 109s near Mailly, 26/5/40.)
  • N2529 17/111/3 FPP/6 OTU/56 OTU/ME.  Crashed 21/3/41: no further data.

Since photos taken July 1940, that rules out N2525 and N2528.

Interesting that they seem to have a chunk of near consecutive serials.  

Anyone ever looked at the 17 Sq ORB?  

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Do you have any information on VVS Hurricanes? - Unfortunately, I am busy only in one direction (But maybe with time I will deal with this issue.

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Please note that you have seen many photos from my collection. But I would like to collect everything in a single archive. I hope for your understanding. Although interesting photos will come across. I’ll add that it’s difficult for me to get information due to the fact that I’m far from the scene)

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And I ask you to comment on the photos if I admit inaccuracies in the description. And that's where I am from the scene ) - 

puZfI7r8PzA.jpg

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Interesting appearance of the roundel on the pic of YB-A.  Perhaps rather hurried/skimpy overpainting with Sky?

 

Spinner looks to be the same as the pics on the other thread of YB-F which also had the bulbous Rotol spinner in some colour other than black (I went with red for that one, too).

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The color is definitely red. 

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Updated album 17 Squadron. Just added a photo logo YB@O. Just now noticed. 

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This is a great resource, Lican.  Thanks for putting so much effort in to this.  There are some superb photos amongst these that I have never seen before.

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8 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

I have serial numbers for some of the 19 Sqn Spitfires flown during BoB but no Aircraft ID letters.  Especially those flown by S/Lt A Blake..

Dilip has the 19 Squadron tome coming out this year, and it features 300 photos, many via the families of ex 19 Squadron pilots. 

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12 hours ago, Smithy said:

I have all 4 volumes and also his "Fighter Pilot: The Photographic Kaleidoscope". All of them are simply brilliant and 99% of the photos have never been published elsewhere.

 

Well worth picking up.

I used to do all the photographic copy work for Dilip, and believe me, you'd be amazed at what has not been published yet...

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1 hour ago, AndyL said:

I used to do all the photographic copy work for Dilip, and believe me, you'd be amazed at what has not been published yet...

 

I'm not surprised at all! I've been in contact with him a couple of times over the years about the odd thing and he even mentioned the multitude of photos that he has that haven't been anywhere near a book. He's a lovely chap too, most helpful.

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10 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Since photos taken July 1940,... 

How precisely do we know the date and location of these photos so far?

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1 hour ago, Seahawk said:

How precisely do we know the date and location of these photos so far?

May be part of the set by Life Magazine,  supposedly taken at Martlesham Heath.

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40 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

How precisely do we know the date and location of these photos so far?

It is the only date and location ever given for these photos.   Given security, these are an official visit by a Life photographer,  William Vandivert,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Vandivert presumably sanctioned as a positive propaganda exercise?  (for US consumption?) 

Many of the photos have become some of the iconic BoB photos

The markings shown also tally, post may 1940 yellow rings and fin flashes, post June 1940 Sky undersides,  with obvious in field application, pre August 1940 underwing roundels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Castle_Camps

Quote

RAF Castle Camps was listed as being in Cambridgeshire as it is close to its namesake Cambridgeshire village. It is very near the Suffolk border and the airfield straddled the Essex and Cambridgeshire county border. Construction of the station was started in September 1939. It opened as a satellite of RAF Debden in June 1940 and became a satellite of RAF North Weald in July 1943.

During the Battle of Britain, one of the units operating from Castle Camps was 85 Squadron, whose Hawker Hurricanes were commanded by Peter Townsend.

 

As an aside, I have mentioned before that 85 Sq are unusual in that they are well photographed officially,  sets of photos exist from winter 39/40 in France, May 1940 at Lille-Seclin,  July 1940,  October 1940 and winter 40/41,  when a nightfighter unit.

Possibly due to Peter Townsend being the sort of C/O you would want to represent you?  

 

Anyone have any of Townsend's books and see if there is anything in them?

 

HTH

T

 

PS one little odd coincidence, looking at the Debden page, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Debden

Quote

One of Debden's early and most bizarre experiences was when the airfield was chosen as a location for the film "It's in the Air" in which George Formby was to pilot a Hawker Fury through Hangar No. 3. The rather sharper angle of the hangars at Debden built around the tarmac apron allowed free access at both ends of the end hangar. The flying for the sequence was actually done by Flying Officer R. H. A. Lee who disappeared on 18 August 1940 when he was last seen ten miles north of Foulness Point chasing three German aircraft out to sea.

Picnik+collage.jpg

the chap in centre above, on the left, in the right photo with A.G. Lewis,   more shots from Castle Camps...

http://intotheswarm.blogspot.com/2011/11/dickie-lee.html

Quote

  In June Lee returned to No.85 Squadron under the command of Squadron Leader Peter Townsend. His experience was called upon to help bring new recruits up to scratch before the Squadron was again ready for operational flying.

          On 26 June Dickie Lee and his close friend Gerald ‘Zulu’ Lewis (also in No.85 Squadron) flew to an investiture where Lee received his DSO and DFC for his service. (The pair travelled in Miles Master N7546).

in the above shots lee's medla ribbons are visible, so that would help with a date

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21 minutes ago, AndyL said:

May be part of the set by Life Magazine,  supposedly taken at Martlesham Heath.

Maybe Andy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Martlesham_Heath

But the photos don't look like a proper pre war airfield, and they do look like a satellite field.  

Given the mix of shots by Vandivert in the Google link https://artsandculture.google.com/search?q=vandivert raf anglia fighters  some are taken at a proper base, but the 17 Sq and 85 Sq shots look pretty rural, which would tally with Castle camps being set up in June 1940.

EDIT

More on Castle Camps here

https://aviationtrails.wordpress.com/2017/09/10/raf-castle-camps-a-return-to-essex/

mentione that 85 A flight was at Martlesham Heath,  and the rural nature of Castle Camps.

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19 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Maybe Andy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Martlesham_Heath

But the photos don't look like a proper pre war airfield, and they do look like a satellite field.  

Given the mix of shots by Vandivert in the Google link https://artsandculture.google.com/search?q=vandivert raf anglia fighters  some are taken at a proper base, but the 17 Sq and 85 Sq shots look pretty rural, which would tally with Castle camps being set up in June 1940.

EDIT

More on Castle Camps here

https://aviationtrails.wordpress.com/2017/09/10/raf-castle-camps-a-return-to-essex/

mentione that 85 A flight was at Martlesham Heath,  and the rural nature of Castle Camps.

I have the set of 264 Squadron images by Life for my Defiant book,  and there are some Hurricanes lurking in the background, plus the set confirms it's an established airfield. 

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8 minutes ago, AndyL said:

I have the set of 264 Squadron images by Life for my Defiant book,  and there are some Hurricanes lurking in the background, plus the set confirms it's an established airfield. 

this

https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/raf-anglia-fighters/qwFe4s8U6yMtPw

 

This does not look like an established airfield,  note tents,  but as both Martlesham Heath and Castle Camps were related to Debden,  both are possible locations. 

Still fascinating the details it possible to verify from the backgrounds.

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Air Britain: Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth and Jefford: RAF Squadrons both have 17 Sq at Debden from 19 Jun 40 to 19 Aug 40 (move to Tangmere).  Martlesham Heath is mentioned at other dates, Castle Camps not at all.  I'm not saying the others aren't possibilities, just that that's what those two (secondary) sources record.  Not only is it possible that "Debden" as a record initially encompasses newly established satellites but also that the photo shoot took place at a location specially chosen to avoid the enemy be able to verify fascinating details from the backgrounds!

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Good evening everyone. I will answer points:
1. Sub/Lt.(FAA) A G Blake - P7423IIaCBAFMXII6MU 16-9-40 19S 'QV-Y' 26-9-40 shot down by Bf109 at Chelmsford S/Lt Blake killed 29-10-40 SOC 31-10-40

http://esah160.blogspot.com/2017/06/ - I think it will be easier to find this magazine than me.

2. Dilip Sarkar - I respect his work. But I treat his books (Duxford 1940: A Battle of Britain Base at War/Spitfire: A Photographic Biography/ The Battle of Britain: v. 1-4 : The Photographic Kaleidoscope) negatively. I have books. I respect his work as a person responsible for publishing books — badly. I wrote to him, the answer was pounded (about the photos) that they are the property of the members of the pilot's simy. But this does not prevent him from printing them in his book and receiving benefits for them. If he is only responsible for printing a texat. In the book (Duxford 1940: A Battle of Britain Base at War) there are pictures of very poor quality (I paid for the corrections, although there is a good quality picture on the Internet). In another book (Spitfire: A Photographic Biography) there are snapshots of video clips and much worse quality (which are better depicted in the book in size). And there are pictures that I know that the author has the best quality - but they are very small and cannot be viewed. What I paid money for is a question)). 

3. I also wrote to Andi Sanders, the author of the books. But I received no answer at all (

4. I wrote to son  Shipman - John Shipman. Who provided me with pictures of photos of his father in good resolution. Huge thanks to him. A colleague from Poland helped me as well. Most importantly, they did not refuse me and helped me, for which I express my deep gratitude to them.

5. I hope you understand my philosophy - that the story should be for everyone and not for money. I want to leave behind me even a drop of truth for people (albeit in the history of aviation) not for money, but for free, the exploits and lives of these people are all property. They are a model of doblis and courage for all of us.

6. I updated  the album 19 Squadron to 50 percent tomorrow I will add a description. Unfortunately, there is no time for now a description of the photos, but for that you have to add your comments.

 

Thank you all for your support. I will try for you.

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I hope you will forgive me for describing the wrong thing. There is not enough free time to cover this topic. But I will fix it. Although I promised 1-10 photos))) I expect to load in an acceptable quality of 800 photos + all the things that will be found.

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25 minutes ago, Lican said:

2. Dilip Sarkar - I respect his work. But I treat his books (Duxford 1940: A Battle of Britain Base at War/Spitfire: A Photographic Biography/ The Battle of Britain: v. 1-4 : The Photographic Kaleidoscope) negatively. I have books. I respect his work as a person responsible for publishing books — badly. I wrote to him, the answer was pounded (about the photos) that they are the property of the members of the pilot's simy. But this does not prevent him from printing them in his book and receiving benefits for them. If he is only responsible for printing a texat. In the book (Duxford 1940: A Battle of Britain Base at War) there are pictures of very poor quality (I paid for the corrections, although there is a good quality picture on the Internet). In another book (Spitfire: A Photographic Biography) there are snapshots of video clips and much worse quality (which are better depicted in the book in size). And there are pictures that I know that the author has the best quality - but they are very small and cannot be viewed. What I paid money for is a question)). 

 

In fairness to Dilip he has done enormous amounts of research and tracked down many, many of The Few, a great deal of whom gave him photos from their private collections. He went to all the trouble and labour of writing his books and if he chooses to publish them with photos that have been gifted to him then fair play to him.

 

If you have all the volumes of his Photographic Kaleidoscope series then you'll be well aware from the introductions how he has used the books to help raise awareness and money for The Douglas Bader Foundation, so whilst he is no doubt receiving benefits for them you can easily argue that he's also using them to try and give back as well.

 

TBH, I don't entirely buy the whole argument that everything is the property of the public, especially private photos from family collections. One of my family flew with 64 Sqn during the BoB and I have a number of photos which have not been made public before. They are family possessions and I don't feel any desire to have them spread over the internet willy-nilly. Maybe down the line I'll make them public but for now they are private family photos.

 

In terms of Andy, I can't speak for your experience but I've been in contact with him before and found him to be a perfect gentleman and also very helpful. 

Edited by Smithy

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He put a lot of effort into it. But the quality of his books wants the best. Dub, I do not argue that he is much better than my access to a meeting with veterans than me. I'm just starting. This is my opinion about the memory of veterans and their praise in society, (I am Russian) for themselves (yes, in my culture) it is customary not to give heroes who protected the fatherland to oblivion. I am sure that if the family would be against you, you would never have known these photos, but they gave them to you. Are your goals to pick up with crash +? And I do not think that they will be against proliferation, but maybe they want other values). (again my opinion)

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I now have these photos as a year, but no one and not where they are not laid out. Now that I need to sell them to you, what would you see them (they are in the public domain, but somehow I did not notice them)? I do not think so, I think that this should be made public and by describing names and events I perpetuate their memory in history, and in 100 years I will not be and they will and will delight new modellers. And I will not. And these foltographs will be available to everyone. I'm not surprised that someone will make decals on them)

Forgive me for the emotions. Everything further on the topic.

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