Fabric Wing Hurricane V7203

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, Lican said:

L1829 - Winston G. Ramsey - The Battle of Britain Then and Now Mk.V . N.L.R. Franks made a mistake. I did not particularly look for information yesterday. And I especially would not trust his work. The book has a missed point in the month of November from November 22 - 26. That I am strange. Today I looked in the 5th edition and clarified the number. I apologize for the mistake.

Sorry, neither Mason (The Hawker Hurricane) nor Halley (Royal Air Force Aircraft L1000 to L9999) mention L1829 as a 615 Sqn. aircraft. Halley (Royal Air Force Aircraft P1000 to P9999) gives P2581 shot down by Bf 109 near Folkestone on 15 August 1940.

There are a few L-xxxx Hurricanes listed with 615 Sqn. at some time in their service and I seem to recall that L1592 KW-Z was a spare with 615 Sqn. at the time it was shot down. Maybe KW-W was also kept as spare aircraft?

 

Claudio

Edited February 17, 2019 by ClaudioN

[Lican]

I cited a source that said that it is L1829. Unfortunately I do not have big data. Here are more sources: 

https://books.google.ru/books?id=fABzCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA2251&lpg=PA2251&dq=Hurricane+L1829&source=bl&ots=9O_G29KANu&sig=ACfU3U0wZqc6GkxGD4BSNRlbJC1-ow_QDg&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn4abUs8HgAhVi6KYKHWNAC_wQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Hurricane L1829&f=false

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Truran.htm

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/index.php?cur=250&qmem=L&qnum=&qname=Hurricane&qt=NN&qa1=L&qa2=&qn1=&qn2=&qn3=&qn4=

Edited February 16, 2019 by Lican

[ClaudioN]

3 minutes ago, Lican said:

I cited a source that said that it is L1829. Unfortunately I do not have big data. Here are more sources: 

https://books.google.ru/books?id=fABzCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA2251&lpg=PA2251&dq=Hurricane+L1829&source=bl&ots=9O_G29KANu&sig=ACfU3U0wZqc6GkxGD4BSNRlbJC1-ow_QDg&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn4abUs8HgAhVi6KYKHWNAC_wQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Hurricane L1829&f=false

http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Truran.htm

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/index.php?cur=250&qmem=L&qnum=&qname=Hurricane&qt=NN&qa1=L&qa2=&qn1=&qn2=&qn3=&qn4=

Thank you for the references. I do not have "big data" either, and your references appear reliable, with the possible benefit of some thirty more years of research.

So: same date 15 August 1940, probably same engagement, P2581 shot down, L1829 damaged. Here's another link you may find useful:

https://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0026.html

 

Claudio

[Lican]

L1829 - Hawker-built First Production Bath ( Winston G. Ramsey - The Battle of Britain Then and Now Mk.V). You can also find a photo and description of this aircraft in Battle of Britain Combat Archive Simon W. Parry. Vol. 4 14 august-15 august. 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Lican

[Jagan]

On 1/27/2019 at 1:01 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

 

RAF serials had break in the block numbers

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

the only ones that fit are 

P2722

or P3722

 

N**** serial planes have distinctive 6 inch high serials,   anyone have access to the 85 Sq records?

I am not an expert on serial number font - but I built this query page just for situations like this

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/index.php?qname=Hurricane&qmem=&qnum=&qt=FN&qa1=&qa2=&qn1=&qn2=7&qn3=2&qn4=2&cur=

 

Possibilities.. 

L1722 - Hurricane I   
N2722 - Hurricane I  
P2722 - Hurricane I   
P3722 - Hurricane I  
V6722 - Hurricane I   
V7722 - Hurricane I    
BD722 - Hurricane IIB   
BG722 - Hurricane IIB  

 

and so on..  rounded first digits in bold..

Edited March 28, 2019 by Jagan

[Troy Smith]

On 20/01/2019 at 19:14, ClaudioN said:

Today I gave a closer look at the wing tip structure. Comparing it with another Hurricane, such as this, it appears to me that V7203 has a fabric wing.

This would agree with information provided by Mason, that I had reported previously in one of my mails. I repeat it here:

• first batch of 600 (the L-serials): fabric-covered wing fitted on almost all aircraft but some were later modified with metal stressed-skin wings at Maintenance Units;
• second batch of 300 (the N-serials): first 80 aircraft completed with fabric-covered wings (most later modified with metal stressed-skin wings); remainder completed with metal wings from outset;
• third batch of 500 (P-serials): majority with metal wings from new;
• fourth batch of 500 (V-serials): first 25 fitted with fabric wings, but most re-fitted with metal wings at M.U.s.

but so far I'd rather agree with the opinion that Hurricanes delivered in July 1940 were highly unlikely to have fabric wings. Now I tend to believe Mason.

 

The first 25 Hurricanes in the fourth batch manufactured by Hawker are V7200-V7209 V7221-V7235. First delivery from this batch was on 2 July 1940 (Mason) and V7203 would be the fourth.

This Hurricane presents an interesting and, I believe, quite unusual combination:

• fabric wing
• late windscreen with internal armour
• late model VHF radio (no aerial running from the antenna to the rudder tip and no support on the rudder tip)
• IFF aerial from fuselage to tailplanes
• Rotol propeller with rounded Spitfire-type spinner

 

 Just a bit of cross linking, confirming that V7203 was built with fabric wings.

posts below lead to thread discussing this.

  

On 23/06/2020 at 17:04, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

In theory N2426 was the last mark I rolled out of Hawker Brooklands with fabric wings, taken on charge 26 October 1939.  Then came the emergency of mid 1940.  So from early June 1940 and into July a number of Brooklands built Hurricanes are marked as having Fabric Wings in the RAF contract cards, namely

 

P3714 to P3717, P3737 to P3739, P3755, P3757 to P3761, P3767, P3768, P3770 to P3774, P3854, P3858 to P3869, P3872 to P3875, P3882 to P3890, P3897, P8816 to P8818, R2680, R2681, V7200 to V7209, V7222, V7224 to V7235, V7276, V7281.

 

 

On 25/06/2020 at 09:44, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

First unit issued to other than initial delivery to Maintenance Unit, also second unit if there was a quick reassignment, and when officially lost.  Issue dates generally seem similar to other Hurricanes with nearby serials.  Some of the entries are hard to read, so if people have better dates please post them.
P3714, 253 Sqn 12 June 1940, 1 CRU?/4 MU 4? September 1940, later became mark II DR341, Russia
P3715, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 Jun 1940, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 30 Jun 1943
P3716, 229 Sqn 4 June 1940, 15 MU 2 July 1940, SOC 1 Apr 1942
P3717, 238 Sqn 18 June 1940, 19 MU 20 June 1940, 253 Sqn 13 July 1940, later became mark II DR348, Russia
P3737, 605 Sqn 3 July 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3738, RAF Station? ?llck 5 July 1940, 232 Sqn 21 July 1940, SOC 22 Sep 1940
P3739, Transferred from 22 to 5 MU 16 August 1940, 141 Sqn 20 August 1940, SOC 16 March 1942
P3755, 87 Sqn 25 June 1940, SOC 27 December 1940
P3757, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940
P3758, 73 Sqn 21 June 1940, SOC 2 September 1940.
P3759, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, became mark II DR349, Russia.
P3760, CFF 11 June 1940, SOC 19 August 1940
P3761, 245 Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 29 December 1941
P3767, 238 Sqn 11 July 1940, 263 Sqn 15 JUly 1940, SOC 1 April 1941
P3768, transferred from 20 to 47 MU 14 August 1940, Middle East, "Unknown Destination" 9 November 1940
P3770, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, 504 Sqn 16 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940.
P3771, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, Rolls Royce 20 July 1940, SOC 31 May 1943
P3772, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 27 May 1941
P3773, 3 Sqn 11 July 1940, no further information
P3774, 3 Sqn 12 July 1940, 504 Sqn 14 September 1940, SOC 21 September 1940
P3854, 7 OTU 17 June 1940, 5 OTU 13 August 1940, SOC 22 May 1941
P3858, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 18 September 1940
P3859, 1 RCAF Sqn 26 June 1940, SOC 19 September 1940
P3860, 607 Sqn 4 July 1940, SOC 8 October 1940
P3861, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 5 March 1945
P3862, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, CAT E 30 May 1944
P3863, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC June 1944
P3864, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, AMDP 19 August 1940, 242 Sqn 25 August 1940, SOC 17 January 1941
P3865, 73 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
P3866, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 12 May 1941
P3867, 302 Sqn 27 July 1940, SOC 4 March 1941
P3868, 249 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 13 September 1942
P3869, 1 RCAF Sqn 22 July 1940, SOC 31 August 1940
P3872, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 June 1940, SOC 2 November 1940
P3873, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 10 October 1940
P3874, 1 RCAF Sqn 30 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3875, 111 Sqn 18 July 1940, SOC 2 September 1940
P3882, 151 Sqn 2 July 1940, SOC 30 September 1940
P3883, 1 RACF Sqn 11 July 1940, SOC 19 November 1940
P3884, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 31 December 1946
P3885, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
P3886, 601 Sqn 12 July 1940, SOC 28 September 1944
P3887, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 1 September 1940
P3888, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 11 September 1940
P3889, 310 Sqn 19 July 1940, SOC 1 November 1940
P3890, 257 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, SOC 8 September 1940
P3897, 1 Sqn 12 August 1940, SOC 11 September 1940
P8816, 501 Sqn 7 August 1940, SOC 26 November 1940
P8817, Transferred from 5 to 50? MU 22 August 1940, sold to South Africa the same day.
P8818, 601 Sqn 25 July 1940, SOC 23 September 1940
R2680, 238 Sqn 7 August 1940, SOC 27 April 1943
R2681, 238 Sqn 8 August 1940, SOC 27 November 1944
V7200, 79 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 14? September? 1940?
V7201, 46 Sqn 12 July 1940, CAT E 27 May 1944
V7202, 46 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 31 December 1940
V7203, 242 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 30 January 1941
V7204, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7205, 32 Sqn 24 July 1940, SOC 12 August 1940
V7206, 43 Sqn 23 July 1940, SOC 27 January 1941
V7207, 87 Sqn 13 July 1940, To FAA, Cat E 13 October 1944
V7208, 213 Sqn 23 July 1940, SOC 28 September 1944
V7209, 73 Sqn 23 July 1940, Robin Sites? (Ship name?) 8 April 1941
V7222, 111 Sqn 14 August 1940, 13 MU 27 August 1940 for repairs, SOC 22 November 1942
V7224, 213 Sqn 14 August 1940, CAT E 30 September 1943
V7225, 87 Sqn 14 August 1940, SOC 26 August 1941
V7226, 87? Sqn 12 Aug 1940, 213 Sqn same day, SOC 30 September 1940
V7227, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn 13 August 1940, SOC 22 August 1940
V7228, 87 Sqn 13 August 1940, 213 Sqn same day, SOC August 1940
V7229, 601 Sqn 9 July 1940, no loss date given
V7230, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, SOC 4 January 1941
V7231, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7232, 46 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 11 Oct 1940
V7233, 87 Sqn 29 July 1940, SOC 13 August 1940
V7234, 501 Sqn 3 August 1940, converted to Mark II DG617
V7235, 267 Sqn 9 August 1940, 303 Sqn 10 August 1940, SOC 31 May 1941
V7276, transferred from 5 to 47 MU 3 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940
V7281, transferred from 5 to 47 MU 7 August 1940, South Africa 20 August 1940

 

Early Hurricane contracts summary, when some orders were still being fulfilled, numbers ordered and built                    
Requisition \ Contract \ Maker \ Order \ I \ II \ IIA \ IIB \ IIC \ Sea \ Notes
26/36 \ 527112/36 \ Hawker \ 580 \ 580 \  \  \  \  \  \ Includes 60 for other governments.  Completed 8 Nov 1939
215/38 \ 966177/38 \ Hawker \ 20 \ 20 \  \  \  \  \  \ For Canada, originally part of contract 527112/36
195/38 \ B19773/39 \ Gloster \ 100 \ 100 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 9 Aug 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Gloster \ 500 \ 500 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 13 Jul 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Hawker \ 292 \ 292 \  \  \  \  \  \ Brooklands, completed 20 Jul 1940
195/38 \ 962371/38 \ Hawker \ 232 \ 232 \  \  \  \  \  \ Langley, completed 17 Jul 1940
56/38 \ 751458/38 \ Hawker \ 300 \ 300 \  \  \  \  \  \ Includes 12 for other governments.  Completed 15 Feb 1940
239/38 \ 964753/38 \ CCF \ 40 \ 40 \  \  \  \  \  \ Completed 2 Aug 1940
5/E1/39 \ B85730/40 \ Gloster \ 1700 \ 1250 \  \ 33 \ 417 \  \  \ Ordered as 500 then an extra 1,200
7/E1/39 \ B62305/39 \ Hawker \ 3738 \ 500 \  \ 429 \ 1138 \ 1671 \  \ Original order for 2,679 a/c?
11/E1/40 \ B62305/39 \ Hawker \  \  \  \  \  \  \  \ Aircraft counted In previous line, this order for 1,059 a/c?
4/E1/40 \ B158177/40 \ Gloster \ 450 \  \  \  \ 450 \  \  \ In summary card as 720 aircraft but 270 cancelled
8/E1/39 \ SB6648 \ CCF \ 560 \ 386 \ 174 \  \  \  \  \ 
1/E1/41 \ SB6648? \ CCF \ 200 \  \ 150 \  \  \  \ 50 \ Some contract card summaries say order was 50 I and 150 II.
5/E1/40 \ B124304/40 \ Austin \ 300 \  \  \  \ 300 \  \  \ 
All \ All \ Totals \ 9012 \ 4200 \ 324 \ 462 \ 2305 \ 1671 \ 50 \ 

All \ All \ Hawker \ 5162 \ 1924 \  \ 429 \ 1138 \ 1671 \  \ Delivery logs totals are 1924 I, 418 IIA, 1768 IIB, 1008 IIC, 44 IID
All \ All \ Gloster \ 2750 \ 1850 \  \ 33 \ 867 \  \  \ Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All \ All \ Austin \ 300 \  \  \  \ 300 \  \  \ Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All \ All \ CCF \ 800 \ 426 \ 324 \  \  \  \ 50 \ 

 

The data without column markers,

 

Requisition Contract Maker Order I II IIA IIB IIC Sea Notes
26/36 527112/36 Hawker 580 580      Includes 60 for other governments.  Completed 8 Nov 1939
215/38 966177/38 Hawker 20 20      For Canada, originally part of contract 527112/36
195/38 B19773/39 Gloster 100 100      Completed 9 Aug 1940
195/38 962371/38 Gloster 500 500      Completed 13 Jul 1940
195/38 962371/38 Hawker 292 292      Brooklands, completed 20 Jul 1940
195/38 962371/38 Hawker 232 232      Langley, completed 17 Jul 1940
56/38 751458/38 Hawker 300 300      Includes 12 for other governments.  Completed 15 Feb 1940
239/38 964753/38 CCF 40 40      Completed 2 Aug 1940
5/E1/39 B85730/40 Gloster 1700 1250  33 417   Ordered as 500 then an extra 1,200
7/E1/39 B62305/39 Hawker 3738 500  429 1138 1671  Original order for 2,679 a/c?
11/E1/40 B62305/39 Hawker        Aircraft counted In previous line, this order for 1,059 a/c?
4/E1/40 B158177/40 Gloster 450    450   In summary card as 720 aircraft but 270 cancelled
8/E1/39 SB6648 CCF 560 386 174     
1/E1/41 SB6648? CCF 200  150    50 Some contract card summaries say order was 50 I and 150 II.
5/E1/40 B124304/40 Austin 300    300   
All All Totals 9012 4200 324 462 2305 1671 50 
          
All All Hawker 5162 1924  429 1138 1671  Delivery logs totals are 1924 I, 418 IIA, 1768 IIB, 1008 IIC, 44 IID
All All Gloster 2750 1850  33 867   Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All All Austin 300    300   Delivery logs agree with contract card summary
All All CCF 800 426 324    50 

 

Geoffrey Sinclair