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Fabric Wing Hurricane V7203


ClaudioN

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GREAT!

OK, some are very very familiar, many are not, but are from the same session,  the 85 Squadron pics are at Castle Camps in July 1940,  I think the 17 Sq ones are from Debden

if you have not seen this, it maybe of interest

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235048032-17-squadron-hurricanes-bob-marking-detail/

I'm still looking through the link...

 

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If I am supported by your public, then tomorrow I will begin work on creating an album and a topic on the photos from the Battle of Britain. I will not obscure the topic here)

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Wonderful,  so much detail to  take in.

the touched up paint on the leading edges is very noteworthy

possibly P2772 ?   Make sense as the first Gloster batch seemed to have paint adhesion problems,  note the big chips behind gun bays.

 

 

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No (possibly P3772), notice that the figure that is not visible has a round shape. Go to sleep. I hope you helped. Tomorrow I'll start creating an album.

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5 minutes ago, Lican said:

If I am supported by your public

you'll have Britmodellers dancing in the streets !

 

I did notice,  this shot of VY-K, https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/raf-anglia-fighters/ggEtqkN3jdIOGA seen before, but cropped,  as the other plane visible YB-O of 17 Sq,  with nose art, and an almost visible serial

the 5 spoke wheels make me think probably N**** serial.

Can someone identify the the Whitley KN-K?

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I tend to think it is P2772 

 

THE HAWKER HURRICANE
MARK I (GLOSTER-BUILT):
First production batch of 500 aircraft built by
Gloster Aircraft Co., Ltd., Brockworth, during
1939-40 under Contract No. 962371/38/C.23a.
Rolls-Royce Merlin III engines and DH or
Rotol propellers. First flight, 20th October
1939. P2535-P2584, P2614-P2653, P2672-
P2701, P2713-P2732

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2 minutes ago, Lican said:

No (possibly P3772), notice that the figure that is not visible has a round shape.

7DNTRqHri-4.jpg&key=1ec133f12f32962b024d

 

RAF serials had break in the block numbers

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

the only ones that fit are 

P2722

Quote

Block 1/G, First Gloster Produced Block

Serial Range P2535 - P2584 (50), P2614 - P2653 (40), P2672 - P2701 (30), P2713 - P2732 (20), P2751 - P2770 (20), P2792 - P2836 (45), P2854 - P2888 (35), P2900 - P2924 (25), P2946 - P2995 (50), P3020 - P3069 (50), P3080 - P3124 (45), P3140 - P3179 (40), P3200 - P3234 (35), P3250 - P3264 (15) - Total 500

or P3722

Quote

Block 3, Third Hawker Produced Block

Serial Range P3265 - P3279 (15), P3300 - P3324 (25), P3345 - P3364 (20), P3380 - P3429 (50), P3448 - P3492 (45), P3515 - P3554 (40), P3574 - P3623 (50), P3640 - P3684 (45), P3700 - P3739 (40), P3755 - P3789 (35), P3802 - P3836 (35), P3854 - P3903 (50), P3920 - P3944 (25), P3960 - P3984 (25), P8809 - P8818 (10), R2680 - R2689 (10), T9519 - T9538 (20), W6667 - W6670 (4) Total 544

The third production batch of 544 aircraft, this included 44 replacement aircraft for operational attrition. Built by Hawker Aircraft Limited, Kingston, Brooklands, and Langley, to Contract 962371/38. Powered by Rolls- Royce Merlin III engines. Aircraft deliveries commenced on the 21st February, 1940, and were completed on the 20th July, 1940.

 

N**** serial planes have distinctive 6 inch high serials,   anyone have access to the 85 Sq records?

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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

 

RAF serials had break in the block numbers http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

the only ones that fit are P2722 or P3722

 

N**** serial planes have distinctive 6 inch high serials,   anyone have access to the 85 Sq records?

From Air Britain serial listings:

 

P2722 85/257  To 3085M 5/5/42.

P3722 274/3 RAAF/274.  Destroyed on evacuation, El Adem, 22/4/41.

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  • 3 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Lican said:

Here's another option with a fabric wing. P2581 - Norman L.R. Franks - Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War

 

I suspect the serial given is wrong,  too many features of a L**** series plane,  curved lower wind shield, 5 spoke wheel, pole antenna, the curved windshield is only seen on very early planes.

perhaps one of our  members with the Air Britain books , eg @Seahawk or @Graham Boakcan see if there is anything about the above plane?

Also,  L1592, now in the Science museum was KW-Z so maybe 615 still had a few old planes in service?

 

If anyone has the 1962  Mason Hurricane book, on page 60 top left, there is a an example with a Spitfire Rotol and a fabric wing,  though looking again (it's caption as 601 Sq plane) it has bare metal behind the spinner, like P3886

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235005804-hurricane-p3886-uniqe-fabric-wing/

a closer look at the photo shows what look to be the same scratches on the upper cowling,  so that's another from the sequence.

 

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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

 

I suspect the serial given is wrong,  too many features of a L**** series plane,  curved lower wind shield, 5 spoke wheel, pole antenna, the curved windshield is only seen on very early planes.

perhaps one of our  members with the Air Britain books , eg @Seahawk or @Graham Boakcan see if there is anything about the above plane?

Also,  L1592, now in the Science museum was KW-Z so maybe 615 still had a few old planes in service?

Franks' Fighter Command Losses Vol 1 says of P2581 on 15 Aug 1940: "615 Sq.  Pilot P/O A J J Truran.  Patrol.  Damaged by Me109 near Folkestone.  Struck off charge."

Air Britain agrees: "615 Sq.  Shot down near Folkestone 15.8.40."

 

P2581 is from the first Gloster batch.  Mason is non-committal as to whether they had metal or fabric wings.  Not until part 1 of the 3rd Gloster batch (V6533-V7195) does he say "all aircraft with metal wings".

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11 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Franks' Fighter Command Losses Vol 1 says of P2581 on 15 Aug 1940: "615 Sq.  Pilot P/O A J J Truran.  Patrol.  Damaged by Me109 near Folkestone.  Struck off charge."

Air Britain agrees: "615 Sq.  Shot down near Folkestone 15.8.40."

 

P2581 is from the first Gloster batch.  Mason is non-committal as to whether they had metal or fabric wings.  Not until part 1 of the 3rd Gloster batch (V6533-V7195) does he say "all aircraft with metal wings".

Great,  I don't doubt the data is correct for P2581, BUT, the photo of KW-Z  above does not tally with what I'd  associate with that serial,  especially the windscreen, what I meant was if you get chance, have a look for L**** and N****  with 615 Sq during the same time frame.  

Also, Air Britain says  "shot down" and Franks says "struck off charge" 

Most of my books in store so can't check the other Mason book.

 

 

 

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L1829 - Winston G. Ramsey - The Battle of Britain Then and Now Mk.V . N.L.R. Franks made a mistake. I did not particularly look for information yesterday. And I especially would not trust his work. The book has a missed point in the month of November from November 22 - 26. That I am strange. Today I looked in the 5th edition and clarified the number. I apologize for the mistake.

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There are a number of odd coincidences that I'd really like to be able to check somehow.

 

Bruce Robertson in "British Military Aircraft Serials" reports details I have not seen elsewhere. Concerning early Hurricanes, Robertson wrote that Hurricanes in the Gloster production run, up to P2681, had 2-blade Watts propeller, then from P2682 3-blade Rotols. Considering black-out serial blocks we are talking of exactly 100 aircraft: P2535-P2584, P2614-P2653, P2672-P2681. He also also noted that "first 100 had TR9D, rest TR1133". In the end, this would mean 100 aircraft with 2-blade Watts propeller and TR9D HF radio. This change from the early pre-war fit to the latest configuration with constant-speed propeller and VHF radio seems incredible.

 

Then, within the Hawker-built Hurricanes, Robertson listed P3714-P3717, P3737-P3739, P3757-P3761, P3767, P3768, P3770-P3774, P3858-P3869, P3872-P3875, P3882-P3889, P3897-P3903 as fabric-winged Hurricanes. Exactly 50 aircraft in the final part of the production run of 500, all built at Kingston-Brooklands. This was the first Hurricane production line where, reportedly, all the 900 Hurricanes of the first two contracts had been built. Of these, 680 seemingly started life with fabric wings, up to N2318-N2367 and N2380-N2409.

 

Note that all examples of possible fabric-winged Hurricanes that have been discussed in this thread so far, fall indeed within the list of aircraft that I extracted from "British Military Aircraft Serials".

 

Deliveries of the N-xxxx batch began on 29 September 1939 at a rate of approximately two per day (Mason). First flight of a Gloster-produced Hurricane is recorded by Mason on 20 October 1939, with deliveries commencing in December. The Langley production line came into play with the third Air Ministry order no. 962371/38.


Both Mason and Robertson divide the large order no. 962371/38 for 1000 Hurricanes into two parts, with the first 500 to Gloster and the remaining 500 to Hawker. In his first compilation of Royal Air Force Aircaft P1000 to P9999, Halley simply writes: "1000 Hawker Hurricane Is delivered between November 1939 and July 1940. As the two factories belonged to the same group, it is perhaps not impossible to think of some reshuffling among the three production lines, as has been suggested elsewhere on this site.

 

In his book Mason states that Hawker received a contract for the manufacture of 400 sets of metal wings (!), to be used in first place to replace damaged wings of aircraft returned to factory for repair, then to be issued to Maintenance Units to modify aircraft awaiting delivery to operational squadrons. It would seem that disruption of the production flow was high among Air Ministry concerns. If so, and if reallocation of production among Hawker and Gloster is a possibility, I'd be inclined to believe that most, or possibly all fabric-winged Hurricanes may have come from Kingston-Brooklands, since workers with the skills for Hurricane fabric-wing production were already there.

Given the constraints on the modification programme, the fact that some Hurricanes with fabric wings were still around into 1940 is not so surprising.

 

What do you think?

 

Claudio

Edited by ClaudioN
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